US Politics - Trump cancels summit having to do with North Korea

Brerlappin wrote:

Moggy wrote:What’s terrible about the whole thing is that I think we kind of need Trump to last his entire term while also turning America/the world into a disaster. If he was impeached, quit, died or was assassinated then the idiots that voted for him will just come up with conspiracy theories on how the liberal elite sabotaged him/murdered him and they would go right back to voting in another nutcase.

What we need (and it is really going to hurt!) is for him to do his whole term and get his own way on most things. And we need it to be an absolute strawberry floating shitshow that plunges the world into a ridiculous amount of financial pain that really has a massive negative effect on the rust belt fools that voted for him. Then maybe, just maybe, they will wake the strawberry float up and stop voting for utter cretins that don’t care about them and spend their whole time lying to them.

Sad but true. Its the best way for these idiots to learn that you shouldn't appoint reality TV idiots to the most powerful office in the world. I get it, nobody likes politicians. But there's a reason you vote for actual, experienced politicians instead of actors for the job of president. Much like you wouldn't hire a guy who played a plumber on TV to fix your toilet because he had wild claims about being able to make your toilet pay you for every gooseberry fool you take, instead of hiring a qualified plumber who only claimed to be able to fix your toilet.

I know politics are gooseberry fool, but I've never heard it explained in a lavatorial humour kinda way!

Moggy wrote:What’s terrible about the whole thing is that I think we kind of need Trump to last his entire term while also turning America/the world into a disaster. If he was impeached, quit, died or was assassinated then the idiots that voted for him will just come up with conspiracy theories on how the liberal elite sabotaged him/murdered him and they would go right back to voting in another nutcase.

What we need (and it is really going to hurt!) is for him to do his whole term and get his own way on most things. And we need it to be an absolute strawberry floating shitshow that plunges the world into a ridiculous amount of financial pain that really has a massive negative effect on the rust belt fools that voted for him. Then maybe, just maybe, they will wake the strawberry float up and stop voting for utter cretins that don’t care about them and spend their whole time lying to them.

The fact that they got the working class of America to think that the billionaire with the gold lift was their best option suggests they won't learn.

You've only got to look at the last page to understand the intelligence of the people you think will 'learn'

Who the strawberry float would walk into a Police station, armed and wearing masks because they were 'illegally pulled over?!'

Hexx wrote:Doubt it.

You're gambling on letting the situation going to unprecedented levels of gooseberry fool, in the hopes walking case studies of dunning kruger somehow learn something

How am I gambling? Do you think there is any way that Trump will lead America to great success? Or is it likely to end in financial disaster?

And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it? Because that is ridiculous.

Rex Kramer wrote:The fact that they got the working class of America to think that the billionaire with the gold lift was their best option suggests they won't learn.

True, but they are more than capable of realising that the man in the gold lift has lied to them and that their lives are even worse than they were under Obama.

Gandalf wrote:You've only got to look at the last page to understand the intelligence of the people you think will 'learn'

You're quoting something I didn't say.

I am saying that if America plunges into a financial shitstorm, the rust belt will be hit hard and even the strawberry floating idiots that voted for Trump are capable of realising that they were lied to.

What's the alternative anyway? Hope that Trump is a massive success? Hope he gets killed and Pence takes over?

Moggy wrote:

Hexx wrote:Doubt it.

You're gambling on letting the situation going to unprecedented levels of gooseberry fool, in the hopes walking case studies of dunning kruger somehow learn something

How am I gambling? Do you think there is any way that Trump will lead America to great success? Or is it likely to end in financial disaster?

And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it? Because that is ridiculous.

I think what is likely is that (if he gets enough time) Trump will spend a fortune on infrastructure projects (like his wall) that in the short term will make certain groups of people better off (and a considerably smaller group of people even better off) but in the longer term will end up crippling the economy. Except that'll be someone else's problem to sort out.

The problem is I think Trump may have problems getting his plan to spend big on infrastructure though as the Republicans just hate spending on infrastructure. He'll get more help from the Democrats over it than he will from them.

Moggy wrote:And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it? Because that is ridiculous.

It isn't though. It happens in this country and I have said before that I believe the general intelligence of the UK to be dwindling and this could be extended to America. People have bleated on about the state of the NHS and then vote into power the party most likely to drive it into an even worse state to justify a future sale. They then vote to leave the EU which enshrines us with human rights and standards that the Tories will no doubt slowly strip away and degrade.

There is a sizable percentage of the population that simply isn't interested. They will vote for the same party over and over again because in their mind that is who they vote for.

Moggy wrote:And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it's because of Trump.

Yes. I absolutely do.

They're already stupid enough to not see through the charade of rhetoric to his actions despite the mountains of evidence put to them (Screw SMEs! Don't pay Taxes! Outsource jobs!)

That's ignoring people he explicitly said in his campaign he'd make worse off voting for him despite it.

Why should it be any different in 2020?

And that's also ignoring the people that will vote for "their" party regardless.

Moggy wrote: the strawberry floating idiots that voted for Trump are capable of realising that they were lied to.

They've not worked it out over the last...2 years?

I think the difference at the mid-terms and 2020 is that a lot of people who didn't vote last time will and they will be overwhelmingly because what Trump has done has angered them into doing so. Apathy can linger when things are just plodding along but when you have someone going all bull in a china shop like Trump it's hard to be apathetic.

Drumstick wrote:

Moggy wrote:And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it? Because that is ridiculous.

It isn't though. It happens in this country and I have said before that I believe the general intelligence of the UK to be dwindling. People have bleated on about the state of the NHS and then vote into power the party most likely to drive it into an even worse state to justify a future sale. They then vote to leave the EU which enshrines us human rights and standards that the Tories will no doubt slowly strip away and degrade.

There is a sizable percentage of the population that simply isn't interested. They will vote for the same party over and over again because in their mind that is who they vote for.

If that was true then we would never have a change of government in either country. And it is way too early to suggest that the “post truth, alternative facts” style is unbeatable in the future, but it will all depend on how the US/UK get on with their new realities.

The Tories ruled until 1997 when they were thrown out for being useless bastards.

Labour ruled until 2008 when they were thrown out for being useless bastards (unfairly maybe but still).

Tory/Lib Dems ruled until 2015 when the Lib Dems were thrown out for being useless bastards. Labour still looked like useless bastards.

The Tory’s are likely to rule until 2025 as Corbyn/Labour look like useless bastards.

The Democrats ruled until 2000 when Bush “won” by not really winning.

Bush won in 2004 because of 9/11 and the fact the country wasn’t doing too badly at the time.

Obama stormed to massive victories in 2008 and 2012 because the Republicans looked like useless bastards and he looked like a hope for the future.

Brexit won in 2016 based on lies, fear and the promise to help the little guy.

Trump “won” (less votes but still sort of won) in 2016 based on lies, fear and the promise to help the little guy.

How do you counter the 2016 bullshit? Well one way would be for it to be shown up as the complete crock of horseshit that it looks like being. If in 2020 the US and UK are on their knees thanks to the strawberry floating stupid decisions of their electorates then a lot of the stupid people will have to realise that things are worse for them and they will vote for a change (as they have before).

The long term danger is if Trump and Brexit are successful and we keep voting for more and more extreme people/policies, but does anybody really think that Trump or Brexit are going to be massive successes?

The other danger is that Trump will get forced out or assassinated, the alt-right and the stupid will then probably start a civil war over there.

Hexx wrote:

Moggy wrote:And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it's because of Trump.

Yes. I absolutely do.

They're already stupid enough to not see through the charade of rhetoric to his actions despite the mountains of evidence put to them (Screw SMEs! Don't pay Taxes! Outsource jobs!)

That's ignoring people he explicitly said in his campaign he'd make worse off voting for him despite it.

Why should it be any different in 2020?

And that's also ignoring the people that will vote for "their" party regardless.

Changing my quote? Poor show.

Trump has been in power for a couple of weeks. Let's see how they feel in 4 years time.

Moggy wrote: the strawberry floating idiots that voted for Trump are capable of realising that they were lied to.

They've not worked it out over the last...2 years?

He's not been in power for 2 years.

Moggy wrote:

Hexx wrote:

Moggy wrote:And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it's because of Trump.

Yes. I absolutely do.

They're already stupid enough to not see through the charade of rhetoric to his actions despite the mountains of evidence put to them (Screw SMEs! Don't pay Taxes! Outsource jobs!)

That's ignoring people he explicitly said in his campaign he'd make worse off voting for him despite it.

Why should it be any different in 2020?

And that's also ignoring the people that will vote for "their" party regardless.

Changing my quote? Poor show.

Trump has been in power for a couple of weeks. Let's see how they feel in 4 years time.

Moggy wrote: the strawberry floating idiots that voted for Trump are capable of realising that they were lied to.

They've not worked it out over the last...2 years?

He's not been in power for 2 years.

I bolded it to show what I added. You presented it as "they won't know they're worse off? How silly" - that's not what I said/meant - I specifically said they won't learn anything.

Nope - but they've had two years (ish) of people pointing out the ridiculousness of his claims/arguments/positions and how he's not placed to help them based on the reality of his actions.

I fundamentally disagree with your position that the best outcome is for the 4 years to run it's destructive course and hope those idiots somehow stop being idiots despite the overwhelming precedent to the contrary.

I would rather Trump be a massive success as President and that the world becomes more stable, prosperous and safe.

Trouble is, my version of success and his are probably wildly different.

Hexx wrote:I fundamentally disagree with your position that the best outcome is for the 4 years to run it's destructive course and hope those idiots somehow stop being idiots despite the overwhelming precedent to the contrary.

The overwhelming precedent is that Obama had 8 years just before Trump. It's hardly a ridiculous idea that a disastrous Trump presidency will not see the US flip back to where it was a matter of weeks ago.

Rather than getting into pointless arguments, why don't you tell us what you think is the best outcome for the next 4 years?

Moggy wrote:

Hexx wrote:I fundamentally disagree with your position that the best outcome is for the 4 years to run it's destructive course and hope those idiots somehow stop being idiots despite the overwhelming precedent to the contrary.

The overwhelming precedent is that Obama had 8 years just before Trump. It's hardly a ridiculous idea that a disastrous Trump presidency will not see the US flip back to where it was a matter of weeks ago.

Rather than getting into pointless arguments, why don't you tell us what you think is the best outcome for the next 4 years?

It's a ridiculous idea we need Trump to be a disaster so that a group of people will suddenly behave differently to how they historical have based on similar situation.

We need Trump to have the best Presidency possible - in spite of him, not because of him. We need resistance every single step of the way so he "achieves" little. That's the only way for him to have the "best" presidency and for the fewest people possible to suffer (Mirco-example - Muslim Ban)

Actions, Protests and Counter actions from the opposition and moderates will achieve that.

The moderates, not the Rust Belt, are the key and it's already happening. They'll understand. And they'll vote for a decent candidate next time (likely Dem...poss Republican..not sure how it works for a sitting President...do they re-run primaries?)

Will it convince the "Rust belt"? Hell no. But nothing will based on events to date. Those people deserve to be write offs - and thinking we should hope Trump strawberry floats the entire thing up to try and change their mind is the worse kind of self inflicted wound. The pointless one.

We want Trump's 4 years to be a look back and go "You know what, he didn't strawberry float it up. He tried to but we stopped him. What a narrow escape we had" rather than "Wow. Look at that strawberry float up, you're gonna change your vote now right Mr KKK?"

You accuse me of gambling by hoping Trump strawberry floats up and they get rid of him, but your solution is to hope that he has the best Presidency possible?

Yeah, I am sure that people in 2020 will look back and think "You know what, he had a great Presidency, the BEST Presidency but maybe I should vote for somebody else now because I saw some protests and he didn't manage to ban Muslims".

Moggy wrote:

Drumstick wrote:

Moggy wrote:And you doubt what? That people that voted for Trump will get to 2020 far worse off personally but will be too unintelligent to realise it? Because that is ridiculous.

It isn't though. It happens in this country and I have said before that I believe the general intelligence of the UK to be dwindling. People have bleated on about the state of the NHS and then vote into power the party most likely to drive it into an even worse state to justify a future sale. They then vote to leave the EU which enshrines us human rights and standards that the Tories will no doubt slowly strip away and degrade.

There is a sizable percentage of the population that simply isn't interested. They will vote for the same party over and over again because in their mind that is who they vote for.

If that was true then we would never have a change of government in either country.

We do, courtesy of the percentages of the electorates that aren't married to repeatedly voting for the same party (i.e. the open-minded).

Moggy wrote:You accuse me of gambling by hoping Trump strawberry floats up and they get rid of him,

Moggy wrote:What’s terrible about the whole thing is that I think we kind of need Trump to last his entire term while also turning America/the world into a disaster. If he was impeached, quit, died or was assassinated then the idiots that voted for him will just come up with conspiracy theories on how the liberal elite sabotaged him/murdered him and they would go right back to voting in another nutcase.

What we need (and it is really going to hurt!) is for him to do his whole term and get his own way on most things. And we need it to be an absolute strawberry floating shitshow that plunges the world into a ridiculous amount of financial pain that really has a massive negative effect on the rust belt fools that voted for him. Then maybe, just maybe, they will wake the strawberry float up and stop voting for utter cretins that don’t care about them and spend their whole time lying to them.

It's not really an accusation, is it?

And we're talking about different "people".

You think we need him to strawberry float everything up, as that'll (MAYBE) make his die hard supporters turn on him. (And presumably moderates will as well - it's gone unsaid, but I can't think you wouldn't think that)

I want people to fight tooth and nail to stop him strawberry floating everything up (i.e the best presidency we can hope for with him), ignoring his die hard supporters as unreachable, and think "moderates" will turn on him because of their cognitive ability to be aware of the near miss of significant strawberry float uppery.

Hexx wrote:You think we need him to strawberry float everything up, as that'll (MAYBE) make his die hard supporters turn on him. (And presumably moderates will as well - it's gone unsaid, but I can't think you wouldn't think that)

His absolute die hard supporters probably wouldn’t turn on him. But him having the “best possible presidency” certainly will not turn people against him.

Think of the situation in 2020. Trump has had the presidency for 4 years and his party has control of both houses (for half his term at least). What is going to make people vote him out?

Option A: He has had the best possible presidency, a lot of policies were stopped by the courts or somehow blocked by the Democrats but the economy is ticking over nicely, jobs have been created, he looks tough on ISIS etc. Trump and his supporters point to the country not being in a complete state “like the experts said!” and that they would be even better off if it wasn’t for those meddling Democrats.

Option B: He has had the worst possible presidency, a lot of policies were stopped by the courts or somehow blocked by the Democrats but the economy has also tanked, jobs are down massively from where they were under Obama, he looks tough on ISIS etc but hasn’t really made any real headway. Everyone is pointing out that the country is in a complete state “like the experts warned you!” and that they would have been better off if people hadn’t voted for Trump.

I want people to fight tooth and nail to stop him strawberry floating everything up (i.e the best presidency we can hope for with him), ignoring his die hard supporters as unreachable, and think "moderates" will turn on him because of their cognitive ability to be aware of the near miss of significant strawberry float uppery.

I don't think I have suggested we just all sit back and let him get on with it without protesting or trying to stop him. I said I think the best hope for the future is for Trump to not be assassinated or ousted and for everyone to then see what the state of the US is after four years of his fuckups. Because otherwise we risk a madman like Trump getting elected again.