Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet

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Steve
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PostRoad Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Steve » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:43 pm

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/18 ... _dot_beta/
The government's "Managed Motorway" re-badged road-pricing scheme seems to be taking on more shape, with reports indicating that technical elements of it will commence testing from 2010.

The Telegraph says this morning that contracts are close to being signed for trials of "Spy in the Sky" car-tracking equipment and associated admin infrastructure, able to track a car's movements and automatically deliver an appropriate road-usage bill to the owner.

"It seems that Labour's unpopular plans for a national road pricing scheme are alive and well," the Tories' Theresa Villiers told the Telegraph.

"They are determined to press ahead with their untried and untested spy-in-the-sky national project even though it looks like an IT disaster waiting to happen."

The government has made every effort to downplay its Road Pricing 2.0 plans, burying the details behind talk of hard-shoulder driving and variable-speed-limit traffic management. However, Ruth Kelly and her team at the Department for Transport have openly admitted that they want to use toll lanes on the motorways, and that some kind of e-tracking would be necessary. Automatic Numberplate Recognition (ANPR), used in most current traffic-control systems - for instance the London Congestion Charge zone - is easily beaten by the use of false plates carrying someone else's number*.

According to the Telegraph's sources, the 2010 trials will open to volunteer beta-testers after a few months, and will mostly involve "a satellite tracking a vehicle's movements" for the purpose of billing.

In fact, Ms Villiers' and the Telegraph's descriptions notwithstanding, the satellites involved will be simple timing-and-navigation transmitter birds, not surveillance ones. The machinery which will know where the vehicle is will be the the box in the car, not the one in space. But the box in the car will have to let the billing infrastructure know where the car has been, which will create a database of locations and times - perhaps updated in close to real-time. Such a database is always highly desirable to police and security officials, and it is likely to be only a matter of time before they get routine, automated access to it - as has already happened with the Congestion Charge. The same would be true of any system using electronic tags read by roadside equipment.

With some in the government pushing for electronic surveillance and intercept data to be made more widely available, this sort of thing understandably upsets privacy advocates and libertarians, as well as increasingly cash-strapped motorists.

"We have been absolutely clear that any proposal for national road pricing would need to address the legitimate concerns people have," the DfT told the Telegraph.

"We're a very long way from that which is why our priority now and over the next decade is on tackling congestion where it is experienced most - in our cities and on our motorways."

Given the huge groundswell of opposition which met the initial national road-pricing proposals, and their subsequent hasty kicking into touch, a truly comprehensive charging regime may never appear. The DfT is openly considering nothing more than toll lanes for the moment, and that may well be as far as charging goes. Some lanes of the motorways at least seem likely to remain free to use, though these lanes may be rather crowded.

What the government aren't admitting is that it will be very difficult to keep the e-tagging or GPS spy-in-cab kit on an optional basis if the Managed Motorway plans go nationwide. The free motorway lanes will still need automatically-enforceable lowered speed limits at peak times, and there will also be the issue of freeloaders without payment trackers trying to use the pay lanes. In the long term ANPR is busted as an enforcement method, as the government acknowledges. Managed Motorway as a whole will offer greater incentives to commit vehicle-ID fraud, and such a setup will need vehicle-ID stronger than numberplates for everyone - not just for those wanting to use the pay lanes.

So there may not be secret plans for compulsory road-pricing; but the existing plans are, in effect, plans for compulsory national vehicle-tracking in future. That should have the libertarians and privacy campaigners up in arms, even if not necessarily the grassroots motorists.

Even hardcore libertarians might concede, however, that without changes of some kind - Managed Motorway, outright national road pricing, a colossal and now probably unaffordable road-building programme, something - the UK's busier roads will grind to a halt more and more often over the coming decade.

What's the least-worst option? Cash tollbooths, anyone? ®

* Someone who drives the same make and colour of vehicle as you - numbers are easily checked for these details on a variety of motor-trade, insurance and gov websites, assuming you don't want to walk about and just copy a number off the first appropriate wheels you see.


:roll:

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Alvin Flummux
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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Alvin Flummux » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:45 pm

As a person who doesn't own a car I wholeheartedly approve of these measures. ;)


Also, Jeremy Clarkson can strawberry float off with whatever vitriol he has in store for this in his future Sun articles.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by i.mosfet » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:46 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:As a person who doesn't own a car I wholeheartedly approve of these measures. ;)


Also, Jeremy Clarkson can strawberry float off with whatever vitriol he has in store for this in his future Sun articles.


Hang your head in shame.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Hexx » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:47 pm

It's like Cal's worse nightmare :lol:

With any luck this lot wont be in power in 2010, and the torries will make a manifesto pledge to halt it (and keep it)

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Steve » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:50 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:As a person who doesn't own a car I wholeheartedly approve of these measures. ;)


Also, Jeremy Clarkson can strawberry float off with whatever vitriol he has in store for this in his future Sun articles.


What about people who are skint and are just trying to get to work and earn a living?

If you make it impossible for people to get to work they'll end up on the dole and will be claiming benefits. How is that a benefit?

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Alvin Flummux » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:51 pm

And what makes anyone think the Tories will be any better than Labour? Every party becomes as bad as its predecessor in time, it's an inevitability and the fact everyone seems to believe all the 'it won't be the same next time' gooseberry fool is beyond belief.

Even if the Tories don't do road pricing, sooner or later they'll do something just as "bad" that everyone will rail against.

Steve wrote:What about people who are skint and are just trying to get to work and earn a living?

If you make it impossible for people to get to work they'll end up on the dole and will be claiming benefits. How is that a benefit?


They could catch a train, a bus or car pool. More public transport in the form of new networks of tram lines would be a great help, too.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Peter Crisp » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:54 pm

I've managed to survive 32 years without a car so far so you can do it. If I remember this rightly the system proposed tracks you and you pay for when and where you drive. You pay more to drive at peak times in congested areas than say 2am through somewhere quiet (erm, the Lake District?).
Personally I think the system we have now is fine as the tax is on fuel so you have some control over that as you can buy smaller more efficient cars but you cant change where you live or work as easy so you may need to drive in congested places at peak times.

I'd hate to be the person who has to muddle a solution together to this problem as even the most well thought out solutions will have detractors.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Cal » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:54 pm

...Such a database is always highly desirable to police and security officials, and it is likely to be only a matter of time before they get routine, automated access to it...


I grow tired of saying it - this how all our freedoms are lost: slowly, by degrees, by duplicity and lies.

I'm not even a driver, but I'm outraged on every driver's behalf.

This country = f*cked.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Gandalf » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:55 pm

When is the next general elecy?

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Cal » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:58 pm

Gandalf wrote:When is the next general elecy?


Whenever that chickensh*t fraudster G Brown and his motely band of cronies decide to put themselves up for a firing squad... :lol:

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Steve » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:00 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:They could catch a train, a bus or car pool.


Impossible for so many people! Late shift workers for example! Plus you can't get to most places by bus/train without changing 'x' amount of times. With my old job, it took 35 mins by car, 90+ mins by bus and there was no train route, I'm sure there's millions of people who have that scenario! Car is the only way for so many people, the Government know it and intend to exploit the hard workers.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Alvin Flummux » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:01 pm

Cal wrote:
Gandalf wrote:When is the next general elecy?


Whenever that chickensh*t fraudster G Brown and his motely band of cronies decide to put themselves up for a firing squad... :lol:


If you're hating on them because of the current economic situation, I do hope you realise that this would've happened no matter who was in power either here or in the US - John Kerry, David Cameron, David Davis, whoever. Brown isn't responsible like everyone seems to make out.

Steve wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:They could catch a train, a bus or car pool.


Impossible for so many people! Late shift workers for example! Plus you can't get to most places by bus/train without changing 'x' amount of times. With my old job, it took 35 mins by car, 90+ mins by bus and there was no train route, I'm sure there's millions of people who have that scenario! Car is the only way for so many people, the Government know it and intend to exploit the hard workers.


Maybe councils should look into creating better public transport systems, then.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Hexx » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:07 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:
Cal wrote:
Gandalf wrote:When is the next general elecy?


Whenever that chickensh*t fraudster G Brown and his motely band of cronies decide to put themselves up for a firing squad... :lol:


If you're hating on them because of the current economic situation, I do hope you realise that this would've happened no matter who was in power either here or in the US - John Kerry, David Cameron, David Davis, whoever. Brown isn't responsible like everyone seems to make out, and it really pisses me off that the blame is not being laid squarely at the feet of the bankers who were trading all that crap to begin with.


And which tri-party regulatory system was put in place to monitor the banks. And who designed it? And who championed it? And who ditherered while it comprehensively fell at it's first major hurdle.

And who has no someone hypocritically lambasted the "off sheet" accountancy trickery of the Banks, while simultaneously used PFI to keep their own debts "Off sheet" so not to break the rules they set?

And then who, upon finding they were gonna have to put those debts "on sheet" as they'd run out of reasons and the EU wide 2009 accountancy rules are coming in claimed "New "economic cycle", new rules!".

Gordon Brown, as a large element of people have been saying for years, is a arrogant reactionary idiot who's entire reputation was built on lies, half truths, spin and deceit.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by SEP » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:09 pm

I wonder how many votes we'd get if we started a pro-driving party and stood for the next general election?

Our main policies could be:

- Cancel any plans for road pricing
- Take car tax costs back to the levels they were at in 1997
- Stop taxing fuel
- Raise motorway speed limit to 120 mph, and reserve the outside lane for vehicles that cannot drive that fast
- Make any MOT-related repairs VAT-free

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Alvin Flummux » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:11 pm

I'd make it my mission to kill you all with your heavy-polluting, anti-environment wankery. It makes me genuinely angry to see such gooseberry fool being bandied about.

The government needs to pour as much money as it can into low-cost, low-carbon cars.

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Cal
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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Cal » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:12 pm

Hexx wrote:And who has no someone hypocritically lambasted the "off sheet" accountancy trickery of the Banks, while simultaneously used PFI to keep their own debts "Off sheet" so not to break the rules they set?

And then who, upon finding they were gonna have to put those debts "on sheet" as they'd run out of reasons and the EU wide 2009 accountancy rules are coming in claimed "New "economic cycle", new rules!".


Another Private Eye reader! Glad to see you've been paying attention, Hexx. The Eye's been on the PFI trail for years now... It IS an absolute scandal. I just can't figure how it never seems to get reported by the mainstream press...

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Alvin Flummux » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:13 pm

Private Eye is a niche publication and as a result the mainstream doesn't take any of its stories seriously?

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Commander Jameson » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:14 pm

Cal wrote:
Hexx wrote:And who has no someone hypocritically lambasted the "off sheet" accountancy trickery of the Banks, while simultaneously used PFI to keep their own debts "Off sheet" so not to break the rules they set?

And then who, upon finding they were gonna have to put those debts "on sheet" as they'd run out of reasons and the EU wide 2009 accountancy rules are coming in claimed "New "economic cycle", new rules!".


Another Private Eye reader! Glad to see you've been paying attention, Hexx. The Eye's been on the PFI trail for years now... It IS an absolute scandal. I just can't figure how it never seems to get reported by the mainstream press...


becoz it saves da publik munee and givs betta custumah servis.

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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by Hexx » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:15 pm

Cal wrote:Another Private Eye reader! Glad to see you've been paying attention, Hexx. The Eye's been on the PFI trail for years now... It IS an absolute scandal. I just can't figure how it never seems to get reported by the mainstream press...


PE Yes, but that sort of thing is in a lot of the pinks all the time (not "mainstream", I know).

Around the Northern Rock debacle, the FSA got roasted in the pinks/industry for it's "practices" - especially those regarding big banks.

Especially when compared to the heavy handed manner in which it deals with small firms/businesses.

Last edited by Hexx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Road Pricing 2.0 is two years away - Lets kill the Cabinet
by KK » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:15 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:Private Eye is a niche publication

205,231 a month. Up there with the lads mags.

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