[DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence - It's a No!

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Should Scotland be an independent country?

YES (I am eligible to vote in the referendum)
30
16%
NO (I am eligible to vote in the referendum)
19
10%
YES (I will not be eligible)
30
16%
NO (I will not be eligible)
111
58%
 
Total votes: 190
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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Johnny Ryall » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:22 pm

[iup=3567297]Henke[/iup] wrote:The yes campaign is biased towards yes?



Yes.

Corazon de Leon

PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Corazon de Leon » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:28 pm

[iup=3567296]Lagamorph[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567291]Corazon de Leon[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567287]Lagamorph[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567256]Meep[/iup] wrote:I don't see anything wrong with my summation there. If you count up the publications backing no then "one sided" is putting mildly. I suppose this might explain why younger voters are more inclined to vote yes. They do not read old media and more influenced by social media, in which the yes campaign has had the edge in I think.

Or maybe there's more support behind the No campaign in mainstream media because there are more reasons to vote No than vote Yes?
If it was reversed and newspapers/businesses had thrown their support behind the Yes campaign, would you still be declaring how unfair it was?


I certainly would. Sections of the media have behaved so disgracefully towards the yes campaign that they actually had the opposite effect on me and helped switch my vote from No to Yes.

Elements of the Yes campaign are equally guilty of that though, perhaps even moreso.


The Yes campaign don't have the ear of the media in the way that the No campaign do. I've studied propaganda and it's use for a number of years, and I know what I'm looking at whenever either side opens their mouth. It's not about that, but that's why I was so critical of Salmond's performances in the debates. The No campaign's actions have appalled me more than Alec's weasel-eyed face ever could.

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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Johnny Ryall » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:34 pm

That's why I've been avoiding news coverage as much as possible Ben. I mean, it's a leap of faith either way, there are too many unknowns on both sides for there to be a "correct" answer. Might have to have an early night tomorrow and get up early for the big announcement.

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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Johnny Ryall » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:41 pm


HSH28
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by HSH28 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:45 pm

[iup=3567291]Corazon de Leon[/iup] wrote:I certainly would. Sections of the media have behaved so disgracefully towards the yes campaign that they actually had the opposite effect on me and helped switch my vote from No to Yes.


Switch your vote because you believe in the issue, not because you don't like how the campaign is being run.

Obviously I don't get a vote in this issue, I think voting to become a separate country has massive implications not all of which can be fortold, with a split so close (in terms of the people for and against) it seems to me that staying the way you are would be the best outcome.

If it is close I imagine it'll take a good long while for a result too, I'd imagine there will be many recounts involved before a result is declared.

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Return_of_the_STAR » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:47 pm

[iup=3567218]Corazon de Leon[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567209]Return_of_the_STAR[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567196]Lagamorph[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567073]Meep[/iup] wrote:If Yes actually pulls off a victory it will be the most astounding triumph of democratic will I've ever seen. I mean, almost the entire media is on-board with Better Together (I think the Scottish Herald is the only publication that has come out for yes) and the UK government has rallied captains of industry to their cause (presumably motivated to protect their profit margins within the scandalously generous tax and land laws of the UK). IMO, it's pretty amazing that things are still so close. If it had been a fair fight then the yes side would be certain to win. If they still do in spite of the media and corporate machinery arrayed against them it will be quite the achievement.

In what way has it not been 'a fair fight'?

Many industries have had good economic and business reasons for supporting the No campaign. What are they supposed to do? Keep completely quiet so that the voting public are unable to make an informed decision? Should there have just been no information from either side?


I am shocked that businesses would choose to back the side that they feel would be most financially beneficial to them. Surely they would accept lower profit margins just so that some people could paint their faces and shout freedom!


That is an absolute melter of a post, considering dozens of business leaders have also come out on the side of yes. You're better than that.


Dozens? That's not a lot really is it.

Too be honest I don't know that much about it. From a brief bit of research the no campaign has a lot more high profile large company backers than the yes campaign.

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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Johnny Ryall » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:47 pm

[iup=3567321]HSH28[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567291]Corazon de Leon[/iup] wrote:I certainly would. Sections of the media have behaved so disgracefully towards the yes campaign that they actually had the opposite effect on me and helped switch my vote from No to Yes.


Switch your vote because you believe in the issue, not because you don't like how the campaign is being run.

Obviously I don't get a vote in this issue, I think voting to become a separate country has massive implications not all of which can be fortold, with a split so close (in terms of the people for and against) it seems to me that staying the way you are would be the best outcome.

If it is close I imagine it'll take a good long while for a result too, I'd imagine there will be many recounts involved before a result is declared.



Best outcome for who?

I hate that bullshit "If you're unsure then vote no" pish Brown is putting out there. If you're not sure do some reading and make your own mind up.

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Fishfingers
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Fishfingers » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:53 pm

[iup=3567325]Return_of_the_STAR[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567218]Corazon de Leon[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567209]Return_of_the_STAR[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567196]Lagamorph[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567073]Meep[/iup] wrote:If Yes actually pulls off a victory it will be the most astounding triumph of democratic will I've ever seen. I mean, almost the entire media is on-board with Better Together (I think the Scottish Herald is the only publication that has come out for yes) and the UK government has rallied captains of industry to their cause (presumably motivated to protect their profit margins within the scandalously generous tax and land laws of the UK). IMO, it's pretty amazing that things are still so close. If it had been a fair fight then the yes side would be certain to win. If they still do in spite of the media and corporate machinery arrayed against them it will be quite the achievement.

In what way has it not been 'a fair fight'?

Many industries have had good economic and business reasons for supporting the No campaign. What are they supposed to do? Keep completely quiet so that the voting public are unable to make an informed decision? Should there have just been no information from either side?


I am shocked that businesses would choose to back the side that they feel would be most financially beneficial to them. Surely they would accept lower profit margins just so that some people could paint their faces and shout freedom!


That is an absolute melter of a post, considering dozens of business leaders have also come out on the side of yes. You're better than that.


Dozens? That's not a lot really is it.

Too be honest I don't know that much about it. From a brief bit of research the no campaign has a lot more high profile large company backers than the yes campaign.


Here's a link showing this. The group "Business for Scotland" that is constantly cited by the Yes Campaign as being representative of Scottish enterprise is a complete sham.

http://www.scotlandsaysnaw.com/business ... d-exposed/

The only major company that supports "Yes" is Stagecoach. Every other major employer in Scotland knows that "No" is the best option for Scotland.

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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Johnny Ryall » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:56 pm

Dude I'm not even saying you're wrong but citing a website with the url scotlandsaysnaw.com is hardly scoring points on the impartial scoreboard.

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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by HSH28 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:56 pm

[iup=3567326]Johnny Ryall[/iup] wrote:Best outcome for who?

I hate that bullshit "If you're unsure then vote no" pish Brown is putting out there. If you're not sure do some reading and make your own mind up.


For Scotland. Forcing a huge change almost half the population doesn't want doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

As for 'being unsure' I was talking about unseen implications, stuff you can't just do some reading to understand. If anyone tells you they know exactly how a yes vote would play out and all the implications of becoming a separate country they are lying to you, because there's stuff no one knows. I'm not even talking about taking an educated guess on what might happen, I'm talking about knock on effects of 1000's of little things changing that absolutely no one can predict.

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Return_of_the_STAR » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:00 pm

[iup=3567333]Fishfingers[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567325]Return_of_the_STAR[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567218]Corazon de Leon[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567209]Return_of_the_STAR[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567196]Lagamorph[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567073]Meep[/iup] wrote:If Yes actually pulls off a victory it will be the most astounding triumph of democratic will I've ever seen. I mean, almost the entire media is on-board with Better Together (I think the Scottish Herald is the only publication that has come out for yes) and the UK government has rallied captains of industry to their cause (presumably motivated to protect their profit margins within the scandalously generous tax and land laws of the UK). IMO, it's pretty amazing that things are still so close. If it had been a fair fight then the yes side would be certain to win. If they still do in spite of the media and corporate machinery arrayed against them it will be quite the achievement.

In what way has it not been 'a fair fight'?

Many industries have had good economic and business reasons for supporting the No campaign. What are they supposed to do? Keep completely quiet so that the voting public are unable to make an informed decision? Should there have just been no information from either side?


I am shocked that businesses would choose to back the side that they feel would be most financially beneficial to them. Surely they would accept lower profit margins just so that some people could paint their faces and shout freedom!


That is an absolute melter of a post, considering dozens of business leaders have also come out on the side of yes. You're better than that.


Dozens? That's not a lot really is it.

Too be honest I don't know that much about it. From a brief bit of research the no campaign has a lot more high profile large company backers than the yes campaign.


Here's a link showing this. The group "Business for Scotland" that is constantly cited by the Yes Campaign as being representative of Scottish enterprise is a complete sham.

http://www.scotlandsaysnaw.com/business ... d-exposed/

The only major company that supports "Yes" is Stagecoach. Every other major employer in Scotland knows that "No" is the best option for Scotland.


This is what I thought. I'm concerned that corazon is becoming a brainwashed nationalist because he feels that the no campaign was putting too much pressure on him. Spend the next day doing some research on your decision. Don't vote because you feel that one side was trying to scare you into voting for them. Vote for the side you agree with even if its the one that you don't like the leaders of.

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Snowcannon
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Snowcannon » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:02 pm

[iup=3567342]Lucien[/iup] wrote:strawberry floating hell. If corporations and shops are influencing your vote, either way, you've got 99 problems.


Yeah, I mean, imagine people wanting not to be unemployed

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Harry Bizzle
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Harry Bizzle » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:23 pm

[iup=3567262]Lucien[/iup] wrote:My friend said pubs are being allowed opened later tomorrow because of the vote. I'm questioning the wisdom of that idea, whilst thinking Friday is the worst night (along with Saturday night) for this nation to deal with the result. Especially if it's a 'No' vote.


Presumably, it's so if there's any rioting they'll be able to pass it off as a normal Friday night.

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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Vermin » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:28 pm

[iup=3567333]Fishfingers[/iup] wrote:The only major company that supports "Yes" is Stagecoach.


Ah, yes. Souter. The SNP's biggest donor. The man who wants to introduce road tolls to help the poor increase usage of his services, come independence.

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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by bear » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:06 am

Is there really any danger of riots once the results are announced?
I know theres been a fair bit of talk about Yes campaigners being horrible bullies going around intimidating No voters but when the Scottish police force are issuing statements that the situation has been blown out of all proportion is there anything to worry about?

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scottish-independence-police-dismiss-preposterous-referendum-day-violence-123916207.html?.tsrc=warhol#7FBFnN5

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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by degoose » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:09 am

[iup=3567215]TheTurnipKing[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567170]degoose[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567127]TheTurnipKing[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567081]Alvin Flummux[/iup] wrote:Why can't people get so energized about voting in normal elections?

Because the question posed in a general election isn't something the ordinary man in the street can, or want to, really have a strong, informed opinion on. There's a lot of conflated issues and no matter what you vote for they're probably going to just do what they want once they get into office anyway.

This is a much simpler question that just about any booze soaked pisshound can understand and interact with. Granted, it has a lot of attached questions, but there's a single core issue that's easy to grasp.

And this is a big problem in my opinion as I think a lot of votes will just be using no brainpower at all and salmond is going for that .He has no actual plan for the currency ,income ,the EU and time frames to progress things if it is yes .He just seems to be psyching people up and hoping they say yes,sadly this is splitting people heavily in Scotland and creating an actual divide in a country supposedly united in salmond's eyes.

Well, given that most of the power is currently in Westminster, I'd have thought that there isn't actually all that much for Salmond to do about most of this stuff until independence. Most of the issues depend rather heavily on what deals will be struck and what will be traded off. I could see the currency question and the matter of the nuclear defences being closely balanced. Equally likely, I could see an arrangement on currency being reached, trading off years of total fiscal autonomy for a currency union lasting x number of years.

An equally good question is why the Westminster doesn't appear to be presenting any plans and timetables for the eventuality that this goes ahead.

I find this crazy when people talk about power ,if salmond becomes in charge he won't do what is good for the country but what is good for himself like most politicians do.

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Winckle
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Winckle » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:15 am

Alex Salmond is not Scotland personified. It is possible to dislike him but support independence.

We should migrate GRcade to Flarum. :toot:
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Stugene » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:17 am

[iup=3567388]bear[/iup] wrote:I know theres been a fair bit of talk about Yes campaigners being horrible bullies going around intimidating No voters


Link?

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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by bear » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:30 am

[iup=3567396]Stugene[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567388]bear[/iup] wrote:I know theres been a fair bit of talk about Yes campaigners being horrible bullies going around intimidating No voters


Link?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-labour-calls-police-4272240
Scare stories like that.

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: [DISCUSSION] Scottish Independence
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:32 am

[iup=3567396]Stugene[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3567388]bear[/iup] wrote:I know theres been a fair bit of talk about Yes campaigners being horrible bullies going around intimidating No voters


Link?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11102194/Threats-intimidation-and-abuse-the-dark-side-of-the-Yes-campaign-exposed.html

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