Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market

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That
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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by That » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:19 am

Rightey wrote:Calling someone Prejudice/Racist because they point out that a great majority of the religious violence in the world is perpetrated by muslims doesn't solve the issue


"Reminder: ISIS are Muslims!!! I'm not racist, I'm just pointing it out!!!"

Sure, okay, fine; but what have we gained from this insightful public service announcement? Are we closer to solving the problem?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the underlying problems are a complex web of political and socioeconomic factors of which faith is one tangential element - does anyone really think it would be any different in a hypothetical world where the only change is that e.g. Iraqis happened to be e.g. Hindu? - and I don't think I've ever seen a good reason for fixating on that Islam aspect -- apart from to justify one's prejudices.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Rightey » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:16 am

Karl wrote:
Rightey wrote:Calling someone Prejudice/Racist because they point out that a great majority of the religious violence in the world is perpetrated by muslims doesn't solve the issue


"Reminder: ISIS are Muslims!!! I'm not racist, I'm just pointing it out!!!"

Sure, okay, fine; but what have we gained from this insightful public service announcement? Are we closer to solving the problem?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the underlying problems are a complex web of political and socioeconomic factors of which faith is one tangential element - does anyone really think it would be any different in a hypothetical world where the only change is that e.g. Iraqis happened to be e.g. Hindu? - and I don't think I've ever seen a good reason for fixating on that Islam aspect -- apart from to justify one's prejudices.


If we can accept that the majority of terror attacks are perpetrated by one group you can more effectively look at how members from that group are radicalized and stop it. For example if we know that radicalization starts early in these islamic schools, it then makes sense to monitor their teaching materials so those that try and brainwash kids are shut down.

I agree it's a complex issue, but saying that faith has nothing to do with it, or only plays a tiny role is just being willfully blind. Loads of these terrorists, especially those from here in the West come from middle class backgrounds, so you can't say it's some socio-economic phenomenon.

To address your example of what if Iraq was full of Hindu's, let's look at South America. This was a region that is pretty similar to the Middle East in that it's had a lot of outside interference for a very long time with dictatorships being propped up by the west which has led to all sorts of rebellions and terrorists groups.

Loads of these guerillas used terrorism to try and overthrow the government, blowing up police stations and going after politicians, but outside of kidnappings to fund themselves they generally didn't target civilians. They didn't go around blowing themselves up in cafe's or running normal people over in the street just because they were members of the enemies society. This is in contrast to islamic terrorists that do target civilians both here and in the middle east.

Lastly you need to remember ISIS isn't just some tiny band of mentally challenged people. When they first started taking over cities such as Mosul, they were welcomed as the population saw them as fellow Sunni's where as the government in Baghdad was Shia.

It is certainly a tough issue to solve and I agree just saying it's because they're muslims doesn't really do anything to solve the problem, but it's an angle that I think should be considered. It's certainly something that's very hard to do in a constructive way though as people on both sides try to make it an all or nothing situation.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by more heat than light » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:27 am

It's funny how whenever one of these school massacres gets blamed on videogames or something everyone here gets their backs up about it, but Islam seems to be a fair target. 99% of Muslims are lovely, genuine people and all this finger pointing does is target them. Witness my scientific proof...

Videogames + Evil = Terrorist
Islam + Evil = Terrorist

See what those two things have in common? (pro tip - it's 'evil'). If the next ten mass murders are perpetrated by midgets, should we start attacking the midget community for not doing more to help?

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Qikz » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:34 am

Rightey wrote:
Karl wrote:
Rightey wrote:Calling someone Prejudice/Racist because they point out that a great majority of the religious violence in the world is perpetrated by muslims doesn't solve the issue


"Reminder: ISIS are Muslims!!! I'm not racist, I'm just pointing it out!!!"

Sure, okay, fine; but what have we gained from this insightful public service announcement? Are we closer to solving the problem?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the underlying problems are a complex web of political and socioeconomic factors of which faith is one tangential element - does anyone really think it would be any different in a hypothetical world where the only change is that e.g. Iraqis happened to be e.g. Hindu? - and I don't think I've ever seen a good reason for fixating on that Islam aspect -- apart from to justify one's prejudices.


If we can accept that the majority of terror attacks are perpetrated by one group you can more effectively look at how members from that group are radicalized and stop it. For example if we know that radicalization starts early in these islamic schools, it then makes sense to monitor their teaching materials so those that try and brainwash kids are shut down.

I agree it's a complex issue, but saying that faith has nothing to do with it, or only plays a tiny role is just being willfully blind. Loads of these terrorists, especially those from here in the West come from middle class backgrounds, so you can't say it's some socio-economic phenomenon.

To address your example of what if Iraq was full of Hindu's, let's look at South America. This was a region that is pretty similar to the Middle East in that it's had a lot of outside interference for a very long time with dictatorships being propped up by the west which has led to all sorts of rebellions and terrorists groups.

Loads of these guerillas used terrorism to try and overthrow the government, blowing up police stations and going after politicians, but outside of kidnappings to fund themselves they generally didn't target civilians. They didn't go around blowing themselves up in cafe's or running normal people over in the street just because they were members of the enemies society. This is in contrast to islamic terrorists that do target civilians both here and in the middle east.

Lastly you need to remember ISIS isn't just some tiny band of mentally challenged people. When they first started taking over cities such as Mosul, they were welcomed as the population saw them as fellow Sunni's where as the government in Baghdad was Shia.

It is certainly a tough issue to solve and I agree just saying it's because they're muslims doesn't really do anything to solve the problem, but it's an angle that I think should be considered. It's certainly something that's very hard to do in a constructive way though as people on both sides try to make it an all or nothing situation.


It's wonderful, because saying Muslims are perpetrating most of the worlds violence (yes I understand you mean just terror attacks) is wrong. Look at Africa and hell even parts of Europe and South America where people are being killed in the thousands by corrupt extremist catholic and christian governments. Also see Palestine where innocent women and children are indiscriminantly bombed by Jewish people every time there's an election coming up in Israel.

Islam isn't the only religion where there are extremists who take the religious text and bend it for their own purposes and goals. Hell, even Hitler claimed that God was on his side during WW2 and managed to justify everything he was doing with the bible.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Eighthours » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:39 am

twitter.com/kthopkins/status/871487298721992705



Please forgive the source, but this is real Wag The Dog type stuff. The problem isn't that CNN got some Muslims to construct a scene in front of them with placards and flowers, it's how it was then reported.

With that in mind, pay particular attention to the reporter's narrative: 'There are flowers on the street... a poignant scene...' Yes, flowers on the street that were placed in the camera shot 20 seconds earlier. This is shockingly manipulative.

:shock:

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by souljahsstory » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:53 am

Shadow wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Peter Crisp wrote:I don't understand why any sane person would join ISIS.
From what little I know they hate pretty much everything that's even mildly interesting and they view women as subhuman. It's like joining a club where the rules are strawberry floating horrific and breaking them means instant death at best.


The simple answer is that none of them are sane.


Unfortunately the simple answer doesn't get us anywhere. I don't know if these banana splits were British, but if they were then we have to look at our society and work out how people can fall through the cracks like this.
The phrase "home-grown terrorist" is truly terrifying. They go to the same school as us, watch Eastenders, get a Boots meal deal for lunch, go on a date to Nandos. They're one of us, but at the same time willing to kill us for no reason at all.

I'm not saying our society is to blame, but I do believe there's a solution to home-grown terrorism that doesn't involve the government reading everyone's WhatsApp chats.


You could point the finger at the rise of islamaphobia, the tarring of every muslim with the same brush and the general bile and hatred that is thrown about on a daily basis.

Imagine grown up in a society where all you see, read and hear is the vilification of your culture and community. It causes fear and alienation even if you haven't done anything wrong. Imagine your reaction if your mother, sister, brother were attacked?

All of which in my opinion makes it easier for terrorist to recruit those people in the uk to their cause simply because of the alienation and discrimination they have experienced throughout there lives. Not saying it makes everyone react in the same way. But it likely causes some people to react in such away.

I remember the days of being called a paki and to strawberry float off back to my own country, despite being born here. It was a blanket level of racism applied to everyone of colour. Now it seems like it's gone up a notch and changed its tone completely.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Squinty » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:04 am

I definitely don't think hating an entire community helps at all. People just using fear to further their own misguided beliefs.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Return_of_the_STAR » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:18 am

Eighthours wrote:

twitter.com/kthopkins/status/871487298721992705



Please forgive the source, but this is real Wag The Dog type stuff. The problem isn't that CNN got some Muslims to construct a scene in front of them with placards and flowers, it's how it was then reported.

With that in mind, pay particular attention to the reporter's narrative: 'There are flowers on the street... a poignant scene...' Yes, flowers on the street that were placed in the camera shot 20 seconds earlier. This is shockingly manipulative.

:shock:


The bbc used this as well. I saw it yesterday and thought some of the women looked uncomfortable like they didn't actually want to be there. Very odd. But then again if you are a group of Muslim women who turn up with your own signs and want to show love and respect then the tv companies will try to organise you into a shot. That or they are all actors.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Eighthours » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:23 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Eighthours wrote:

twitter.com/kthopkins/status/871487298721992705



Please forgive the source, but this is real Wag The Dog type stuff. The problem isn't that CNN got some Muslims to construct a scene in front of them with placards and flowers, it's how it was then reported.

With that in mind, pay particular attention to the reporter's narrative: 'There are flowers on the street... a poignant scene...' Yes, flowers on the street that were placed in the camera shot 20 seconds earlier. This is shockingly manipulative.

:shock:


The bbc used this as well. I saw it yesterday and thought some of the women looked uncomfortable like they didn't actually want to be there. Very odd. But then again if you are a group of Muslim women who turn up with your own signs and want to show love and respect then the tv companies will try to organise you into a shot. That or they are all actors.


The message is great, it's the borderline lie about how it was reported that undermines it now it's been revealed.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Eighthours » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:27 am

Emily Thornberry said something interesting on the radio about the dangers of Blair's 'detain suspects for 3 months without charge' legislation, if the wrong person is arrested: 'If Mohammed wasn't radicalised when he went in, then he certainly will be when he comes out.'

She tossed that remark off like it was obvious. But this is appalling. We should be doing something about our prisons if this is the case.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Rex Kramer » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 am

Eighthours wrote:Emily Thornberry said something interesting on the radio about the dangers of Blair's 'detain suspects for 3 months without charge' legislation, if the wrong person is arrested: 'If Mohammed wasn't radicalised when he went in, then he certainly will be when he comes out.'

She tossed that remark off like it was obvious. But this is appalling. We should be doing something about our prisons if this is the case.

Not putting Chris Grayling and Michael Gove in charge of them would have been a start. It's another public service that has been decimated over the last 7 years.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Tafdolphin » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:25 am

Karen Bradley having a mare on the breakfast shows today

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Preezy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:32 am

Tafdolphin wrote:Karen Bradley having a mare on the breakfast shows today

Details for those of us not able to watch?

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Moggy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:40 am

Garth wrote:
KK wrote:Is that both Gallagher's, I honestly can't tell.

Just Liam I think.


Looking at Liam's Twitter this morning, I don't think an Oasis reunion is happening anytime soon. :slol:

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Knoyleo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:41 am

Eighthours wrote:Emily Thornberry said something interesting on the radio about the dangers of Blair's 'detain suspects for 3 months without charge' legislation, if the wrong person is arrested: 'If Mohammed wasn't radicalised when he went in, then he certainly will be when he comes out.'

She tossed that remark off like it was obvious. But this is appalling. We should be doing something about our prisons if this is the case.

I think the comment was intended more as a "treat someone like a criminal and they'll become one" kind of thing, rather than saying that our prisons are radicalisation factories.

That's not to say that there aren't problems with that, though. Prisons are understaffed and not well controlled. If someone wanted to spread hate speech within, and radicalise their fellow inmates, there's little to stop them.

pjbetman wrote:That's the stupidest thing ive ever read on here i think.
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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Saint of Killers » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:49 am

Preezy wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:Karen Bradley having a mare on the breakfast shows today

Details for those of us not able to watch?


Refused to answer whether or not there are more or fewer armed police today than in (I think) 2010. Piers Morgan then just kept repeating the question, loudly, whilst Bradley continued to ignore it, giving instead a prepared statement as her answer over and over.

:lol: :fp: The shame of being made to look a fool by Piers Morgan.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge through to Borough Market - multiple fatalities
by Venom » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:11 am

Starbreaker wrote:I'm not addressing anyone directly. I'm doing completely the opposite. I'm asking everyone in this thread to take a break until actual information has been posted, and saying we should steer clear of guesswork and conjecture. Calm down.


I'm calmer now! I've been watching and reading the news on and off the whole weekend. Silly weak-minded fools that allow themselves to get radicalised. I will try and avoid the news for a few hours.

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Moggy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:20 am

Good news, somebody I know just marked himself as safe from the London attack on Facebook.

We were all so worried about him as his last post was late on Saturday night when he was at Yate cinema watching Wonder Woman.

:fp:

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Eighthours » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:59 am

Moggy wrote:Good news, somebody I know just marked himself as safe from the London attack on Facebook.

We were all so worried about him as his last post was late on Saturday night when he was at Yate cinema watching Wonder Woman.

:fp:


Important info. Glad your friend survived those popcorn-infested waters. The things he must have seen... I hope he wasn't too traumatised by film trailers that revealed too much. We must stamp out marketing extremism as a top priority. #PrayForMoggy'sFriend

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PostRe: Terrorist attack at London Bridge and Borough Market - 7 dead, 48 injured
by Eighthours » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:08 am

Tafdolphin wrote:Karen Bradley having a mare on the breakfast shows today


Haven't seen it, but have heard that her 'answer' over police numbers was embarrassingly lame.


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