Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision

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Captain Kinopio
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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:14 pm

I don’t think you’d get as many people quitting this for good if there was nothing wrong with the balance.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Tafdolphin » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:31 pm

Captain Kinopio wrote:I don’t think you’d get as many people quitting this for good if there was nothing wrong with the balance.


Just as how you wouldn't get people calling it From's best game if there was!

Not everyone is going to like it. That Jim Sterling video is a perfect illustration of that. But it does what it wanted to do.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:23 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:But it does what it wanted to do.


That’s the I’m sorry you were offended, of the defending a game’s flaws world.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:30 pm

Godzilla wrote:One thing I really don't think is well thought out is the consumables that you need for certain bosses. If you try 5 times and lose them 5 times then... Off griding you go. It's poorly thought out.


So much this.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Tafdolphin » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:05 pm

Captain Kinopio wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:But it does what it wanted to do.


That’s the I’m sorry you were offended, of the defending a game’s flaws world.


Well perhaps, if that's all I'd said. But I did go into my thoughts behind the statement on the other page. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, I'm simply saying it's a game I think works perfectly on a technical level, but it's still a game some people don't like. There are varied opinions on the it out there, but even those that are negative generally acknowledge it's well made.

But obviously some in here disagree. And that's fine!

It's all fine.

Apart from the current boss I'm stuck on who can get strawberry floated.

Gemini73 wrote:You really are just an obnoxious little toad.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Sandy » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:47 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:So first off, I agree with you that it's punishing. I recognise that it's not a game for everyone, and that people are going to get angry at it. I just want to talk about the points I've bolded.

I disagree that the design of the combat is poor. Comprehensively disagree, as I think the combat system is as close to perfect as they were ever going to get, given the type of system they were going for.

In the Souls games the combat was based entirely around the defend and attack posture... you'd watch an enemy's attack pattern, hold down block to nullify their attack and then press forward with your offence. In Bloodborne this was switched out to a more aggressive model where blocking simply wasn't an option... the onus was on the player to keep up the attack and to dodge any incoming animations.

Sekiro is a combination of the two, with the aggressiveness of Bloodborne paired with the need to block from Souls. But where Sekiro differs is the necessity of parrying, a mechanic in both previous versions of the combat system but as an optional addition rather than a cornerstone. In Sekiro you are taught, through tutorials and boss encounters alike, that the best defence is a good offence but also that a good offence can be a good defence. The key mechanic of the system, posture, is intrinsically linked to parrying and many enemies can be defeated quickest in this way.

The reason blockdancing (constantly tapping L1) is a temporary measure is that it's inefficient. If you want to do that then sure, you'll accidentally get some parries but you'll likely miss more than you hit and every attack you merely block is constantly wearing down your own posture. If that reaches the limit...in most cases you're done for. Later enemies specifically stop you doing this through stun attacks, or patterns that disrupt you from standing there pressing L1 over and over. In the early game blockdancing is a way to progress but by the mid-game and beyond it's not a feasible option anymore.

What the system tries to do, it does perfectly. You mention the signposting is poor and I'd say in return...look harder. Not facetiously...take the time to examine your enemy's attack patterns and learn from them. The signposting is there but missable and that's the point: every enemy is a mini-mystery waiting to be uncovered. Each has their tells and their rhythms. The more you play the better you get whilst they remain the same. Like I say, this is a game about learning.

EDIT: there's also a tooltip that states the parry window actually gets smaller the more you press L1.


The tells are obvious. They're giant red signs on the screen for charges, grabs and sweeps. My issue is that it's ambiguous as to what that giant red sign means. It appears in front of the opposition, complete distracting from what they're doing. It should either be a different colour for each type of attack coming at you or not be there at all, then you can just watch what the character model is doing and react to it.

With the parrying, the feedback of when the right time to press L1 is is terrible. Fair enough it can vary between enemies but half the time you press L1 when you pressed it last time you parried that attack and then you enter the lottery on if that's successful or not. Maybe the range is too great and I'm trying to be too precise with my L1 presses but owing to the strawberry float all amount of feedback it gives on this I'll never know.

I'm progressing for now but I can image that I'll eventually hit a boss that has me trying it 300 times and just giving up. Shadow of the Colossus got it right in terms of punishment vs reward for unique enemies - this doesn't. I'm the consumer and correct by default according to the saying.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Godzilla » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:48 pm

I'm loving how people are finding exploits to most bosses and posting them on YouTube. Makes life so much easier.

I'm interested to see if I return to this once I finish it. Bloodborne had me jumping back in straight away and then again for new game plus 2. I feel like I've seen everything each area has to offer as I play through first time.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by IAmTheSaladMan » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:53 pm

Godzilla wrote:I'm loving how people are finding exploits to most bosses and posting them on YouTube. Makes life so much easier.

I'm interested to see if I return to this once I finish it. Bloodborne had me jumping back in straight away and then again for new game plus 2. I feel like I've seen everything each area has to offer as I play through first time.


That’s partly why I think I’ll wait a while before getting this. I’m banking on plenty of walkthroughs and strategy videos for when I inevitably get stuck.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Diceman » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:43 pm

I decided last night that l’d had enough of this. I had the bull in one direction and Lady Butterfly in the other; both strawberry floated me over within a couple of minutes. Again and again. I have a PS4 backlog that I can get loads more fun and enjoyment from than dying and restarting constantly over an evening.

BUT...I watched that video Maf posted a few pages back in my break at work today and I’m going to give it another shot tonight. I really enjoy being in this world and I want to see more of it. If I don’t get past either of them tonight though, strawberry float the game. Life’s too short.

Thought I’d be pretty good at this as I finished Bloodborne without resorting to a single guide or summoning help. Unfortunately it seems I am rather crap at Sekiro.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:08 pm

I have absolutely no idea what the critical path for this is and I wish I did because I think it would help me feel more engaged in the story, which I like but don’t love.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:12 pm

The Corrupted Monk is some hardcore bullshit

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Godzilla » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:05 am

Ghost version or the one from the preview videos?

Spoilers for besting them fast

Ghost can be killed without being hit, two hits then throw dust. Two hits, dust. Until you run out then two hits, fire cracker, until you run out until two hits, green bean snap thing.

The one one with three life bars.....

Two can be taken off at the start. Then only 1 bar to go. Just grapple then drop and then again at the start.



Last night I beat the second snake eyes gun prat. Then I beat some random NPC who was actually not. Still putting off that giant ape though. Keep trying but getting annoyed.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Tafdolphin » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:56 pm

Had to watch a video and cheese the boss I was stuck on. So, hours of frustration capped off by a feeling of having cheated. Hmm.

I beat the next boss, and a proper boss at that, super quick though.

The second of the monk encounters. It was surprisingly easy.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:26 pm

Wow, just absolutely crushed it going through the Castle for the second time. Felt like such a boss beating the gooseberry fool out of those Purple dudes and then the sub boss.

I wish from had a better way of organising its lore and inventory. Sort of like a bombers notebook. People laud the way stories are woven through these games but I find it next to impossible to keep track of the side and bonus stuff because it's all just dumped in the menus spread inventory screens. It's bloody awful.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Tafdolphin » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:11 am

Captain Kinopio wrote:Wow, just absolutely crushed it going through the Castle for the second time. Felt like such a boss beating the gooseberry fool out of those Purple dudes and then the sub boss.


Which sub-boss was this as it sounds like you breezed through an area I got seriously stuck on!

Gemini73 wrote:You really are just an obnoxious little toad.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:20 pm

The one in the area underneath where Genchiro was. Also just beat Owl which was pretty easy too and probably my least favourite proper boss fight of the game so far. A bunch of new mini-bosses have also appeared on the map but the game is starting to outstay it’s welcome a little though so not sure if I’ll try to hard to get them all.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Tafdolphin » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:23 pm

Owl was the one I had to cheese. I could. Not. Get him. Once I watched a video pointing out you can pretty much just run away from him and smack him every time he does his 2-shuriken-leap move I did it in 2 tries though.

The boss before was a strawberry floating pain too, so it sounds like you're doing better than I am.

Gemini73 wrote:You really are just an obnoxious little toad.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm

No that’s what I did with Owl, it’s probabl the easiest a boss has gone down with an approach like that and not particularly interesting.

The other guy I just used ma skillz.

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Godzilla » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:59 pm

Found all the prayer beads (so far) to get my posture as high as possible. Now I'm getting the great ape to phase 2 but just can't beat him.

Nothing left to do apart from him so it's just a lot of trying and failing.

Sadly I think this is a game I'll experience but not return to. It's just a lot more streamlined than souls or Bloodborne and I can't grind to level up and overcome the bosses with brute force (I know that's part of the challenge and I should get better but it's supposed to be fun and not work)

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PostRe: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (PS4, XBO, PC) - FromSoftware/Activision
by Captain Kinopio » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:42 pm

Are you using YouTube guides to help. If not I’d get right on it. The second phase of the Ape I think is easier than the first as he’s a lot more predictable and easy to run away from, his sweeps are also really clearly telegraphed so present an easy opportunity for a couple of hits.

Despite progressing a bit easier and more enjoyably I think my impression of the game is going down. It relies an awful lot on sticking you in real shitty combat environments to introduce ‘difficulty’ (it’s actually just frustration). Running just nullifies about 50% of enemies threat and if you want to fight a bit more honourably the game encourages you not to by giving lots of enemies really really poorly telegraphed unblockable attacks. The absolute gooseberry fool kicker at the moment though has to be enemies who inflict what are basically unavoidable status effects on you leading to basically just a roll of the dice for whether or not you’ll be able to heal.


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