**Spoilers** Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Discussion thread **Spoilers**

[Jenuall]

I mean to be fair Palps wasn't just talking about Force Healing there. The ability to entirely defeat death and to even create new life from nothing is a bit more than rubbing your hand on a snake until it perks up a bit.

[OrangeRKN]

TLJ is better than TROS but it's still bad

Despite the obvious flaws in both though I'm sure we'll have 10 years of people arguing which is worse out of force space vacuum survival and force healing

[Hexx]

I mean to be fair Palps wasn't just talking about Force Healing there. The ability to entirely defeat death and to even create new life from nothing is a bit more than rubbing your hand on a snake until it perks up a bit.

Thats no context bait

[Jenuall]

And I thought it was so subtle as well.

[Victor Mildew]

The ability to cheat the no context thread has been mastered by only one forum member. But if we work together, I'm sure we could discover the secret.

[Herdanos]

TLJ is better than TROS but it's still bad

Despite the obvious flaws in both though I'm sure we'll have 10 years of people arguing which is worse out of force space vacuum survival and force healing

Surely the arguments are about what the films represent, not the minutiae of which particular fantasy powers are viable?

Regardless of its mass appeal in recent decades, sci-fi -// fantasy has always been allegorical, often espousing powerful liberal themes. The original Star Trek was a trailblazer for diversity. The original Star Wars trilogy seems a collection of tropes now but then it was about empiricism, the corrupting effects of power, and redemption through love. Tolkein's stories are about the temptation of power and wickedness, and how unity can defeat cruelty and overwhelming power even against the odds.

To not discuss theme is to surrender to the concept that these movies solely exist to generate revenue and give us a way to pass time.

[7256930752]

Saw this a few days ago, and have spent the time since catching up on the thread.

Thought the film was enjoyable, given that it basically embraced its [whatever the opposite of ambition is] right from the first line of the crawl. Within the boundaries of cinema that the movie set itself right from the outset, it's a pleasant enough ride that warrants one viewing. But if you give any thought whatsoever to its concepts one quickly realises that the film is an absolute trainwreck artistically and culturally, and it is so much poorer both in concept and execution than the film that preceded it.

Ignoring the inconsistencies and flaws and plotholes within the category of "space science" entirely (because all the SW films have these) and judging the movie solely on, well, merit... it has none. It's a childish, dickish thesis on why JJ Abrams was right by JJ Abrams, which is a pretty petty move considering this was never intended to be his film, let alone his trilogy.

Those that have commented so far in this thread that TLJ did as much "retconning" as TROS... what are you smoking? The Last Jedi took plot points from TFA and led them in unexpected directions, yes - but that isn't the same as reversing them. Whereas TROS is only about reversing the themes of TLJ, to an embarrassing extent:

TLJ: Let the past die.
TROS: Turns out the past was alive all along.

TLJ: Luke has learnt that failure is the strongest teacher.
TROS: Apart from bloodline force magic.

TLJ: Your parents were no-one.
TROS: And by no-one, we mean the children of the most infamous villain of all history.

TLJ: Here's a new, diverse character.
TROS: No.

TLJ: Here are some characters flirting with other characters of differing diversity.
TROS: I said NO.

TLJ: The force doesn't belong to the Jedi, it belongs to anyone.
TROS: As long as they're related to a significant character from the old movies.

TLJ: Kylo Ren killed his master; he's the Supreme Leader now.
TROS: No, here is his new master, who was master of his old master. Masters matter.

TROS: There are only ever two Sith.
TROS: And don't forget about the Knights of Ren.
TROS: Plus all the Sith that live on the secret giant Sith planet. Also it's a religion, language, culture and society too.
Old films: There can only ever be two: master, and apprentice.
TLJ: Wait, WTF?

TLJ: The heroes' cunning plan to save the day didn't work out... because that's what life is like sometimes.
TROS: Every single plan by the heroes' works out exactly as planned every time, because that's what my movies are like always.

TLJ: Sometimes, people are simply beyond redemption.
TROS: Hey look guys, Weasley was on our side all along!

TLJ: Everyone in this room is the last of the Resistance.
TROS: Plus JJ's mates.

TLJ: Here's Benicio del Toro.
TROS: Here's Charlie from Lost!

TLJ: We're not just going to make the film the loudest, worst "fans" want, because they already have that film and creating another would be entirely predictable.
TROS: Stay out of sight, Rose, the "fans" don't like you. Cash earned from pandering to toxicity is still cash!

TLJ: War might kill but it's endlessly profitable.
TROS: And there's nothing wrong with indulging awful concepts for profit!

The cognitive dissonance of TLJ fans and the subsequent internet discussions has definitely been the most interesting thing about this saga

What I find interesting is throughout this thread you've insisted that TLJ is somehow the poorer film yet not given any reasoning? But despite its litany of flaws you defend TROS, which to any objective observer, is the very definition of cognitive dissonance.

This just isn't true, in fact your post only proves my point.

[Herdanos]

This just isn't true, in fact your post only proves my point.

Care to elaborate further, given that you've just made an entirely baseless claim?

[OrangeRKN]

TLJ is better than TROS but it's still bad

Despite the obvious flaws in both though I'm sure we'll have 10 years of people arguing which is worse out of force space vacuum survival and force healing

Surely the arguments are about what the films represent, not the minutiae of which particular fantasy powers are viable?

Regardless of its mass appeal in recent decades, sci-fi -// fantasy has always been allegorical, often espousing powerful liberal themes. The original Star Trek was a trailblazer for diversity. The original Star Wars trilogy seems a collection of tropes now but then it was about empiricism, the corrupting effects of power, and redemption through love. Tolkein's stories are about the temptation of power and wickedness, and how unity can defeat cruelty and overwhelming power even against the odds.

To not discuss theme is to surrender to the concept that these movies solely exist to generate revenue and give us a way to pass time.

I was saying what we're going to get, not what we should have. Arguing about which force power is worst is the least interesting thing to me

[Herdanos]

OK, fair play.

[7256930752]

This just isn't true, in fact your post only proves my point.

Care to elaborate further, given that you've just made an entirely baseless claim?

You've claimed that I haven't given any reasons why TLJ is bad and that I've aggressively defended TRoS. I've you've read the thread you'll see that these claims are both wrong.

All your points about how great TLJ and ignoring the many things that are wrong about it is exactly what I meant by cognitive dissonance.

[Jenuall]

That's not cognitive dissonance.

Unless someone is decrying an aspect and its implementation within TRoS whilst simultaneously loving the exact same thing in TLJ then that isn't a cognitive dissonance.

[Herdanos]

That's not cognitive dissonance.

Unless someone is decrying an aspect and its implementation within TRoS whilst simultaneously loving the exact same thing in TLJ then that isn't a cognitive dissonance.

Phew, I was worried it was just me for a second there.

The Last Jedi isn't a great film. I'm not sure I've said it is. But I have said - and will again - that it's a far better film than The Rise of Skywalker.

[Hexx]

That's not cognitive dissonance.

Unless someone is decrying an aspect and its implementation within TRoS whilst simultaneously loving the exact same thing in TLJ then that isn't a cognitive dissonance.

Phew, I was worried it was just me for a second there.

The Last Jedi isn't a great film. I'm not sure I've said it is. But I have said - and will again - that it's a far better film than The Rise of Skywalker.

(I don't want to get into this again - but I like that gif)

[Oblomov Boblomov]

The worst thing about both films is that we seem to have actually lost Taf over it .

You should all be ashamed of yourselves!

[Herdanos]

(I don't want to get into this again - but I need to have the last word

Classic Hexx.

[7256930752]

That's not cognitive dissonance.

Unless someone is decrying an aspect and its implementation within TRoS whilst simultaneously loving the exact same thing in TLJ then that isn't a cognitive dissonance.

Phew, I was worried it was just me for a second there.

The Last Jedi isn't a great film. I'm not sure I've said it is. But I have said - and will again - that it's a far better film than The Rise of Skywalker.

I don't think it has to be exactly the same but I think you get the point that the arguments from TLJers are very inconsistent, TLJ isn't subject to the same level of scrutiny as TRoS.

I'm pretty sure I've stated that TLJ is the better film but not by the margin some would believe. All the film's in this new trilogy have problems but they're all fairly enjoyable, it's just hard to look past the whole thing as a huge missed opportunity.

[Alvin Flummux]

The 'leaks' on Reddit read like they could be from JJ himself. Everything makes him look amazing/good. Not buying.

Are you referring to the information coming out on the interference of Disney's execs?

[Hexx]

The 'leaks' on Reddit read like they could be from JJ himself. Everything makes him look amazing/good. Not buying.

Are you referring to the information coming out on the interference of Disney's execs?

https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancra ... urce_that/

[Alvin Flummux]

The 'leaks' on Reddit read like they could be from JJ himself. Everything makes him look amazing/good. Not buying.

Are you referring to the information coming out on the interference of Disney's execs?

https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancra ... urce_that/

That's absolutely devastating news if true. It would certainly explain Boyega's spoilery tweets.

Yeah that's almost certainly just a bullshit toxic "fan" post. Ignore it.