Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker

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Rightey
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PostStabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Rightey » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:19 am

https://www.newsweek.com/stabbing-victi ... er-1467270

An Australian man has pleaded guilty to manslaughter in the killing of a 60-year-old homeless man outside a Sydney pub in December 2018.

The Sydney Morning Herald reports that Christian Hargrave-McKey, 30, had been drinking with a friend at the Nelson Hotel in Bondi Junction on December 22 when they went to get food at a nearby KFC.

On the way back, Hargrave-McKey ran into Mark Thomas, who had also been imbibing at the Nelson Hotel. The pair got into an argument on the sidewalk that quickly escalated into violence, with the two men shoving and shouting at each other.

A bystander attempted to intervene, but Hargrave-McKey shooed her away when he saw Thomas rooting around in his backpack, telling her, "The man is trying to kill you," according to News 7.

At that point, Thomas reached into his satchel and pulled out an 8-inch knife, which he removed from its packaging. He then threatened the other man with it.

Hargrave-McKey said, "Go on, f---ing stab me, then," and Thomas complied, driving the blade into Hargrave-McKey's abdomen, but the impact caused him to release the weapon.

Hargrave-McKey then pulled the knife out of his midsection and attacked Thomas with it, stabbing him 11 times in the back and chest, going through his rib cage and piercing his heart.

Security cameras captured the incident, which was shared by News 7.

Hargrave-McKey was found lying in a bed of plants by the side of the road. Police took him to the hospital, where he had his gall bladder removed. His wound was so serious that social workers were asked to help manage potential end of life care, but he managed to make a full recovery.

Thomas was not so lucky. He was pronounced dead at the scene at 8:29 p.m. after paramedics could not stabilize him. Investigators found that some of the wounds on his arms likely came from his attempt to defend himself.

While in the hospital, Hargrave-McKey told police, "I'm so disappointed in myself. I just found out what I did. I'm so sorry. That poor bloke."

After Hargrave-McKey was discharged on January 3, he was immediately arrested and taken to jail.

He was in court on Tuesday, where he entered a plea of manslaughter on the basis of extreme provocation. His next court appearance is November 8, where an initial sentencing date will be determined.


So legal experts of GR, should this guy be punished for manslaughter?

Personally I think this is a pretty straight forward case of self defence, there's even a witness and CCTV footage. No idea why the guy would have plead guilty to the charge.

Was it because he told him to try and stab him?

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Somebody Else's Problem
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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Somebody Else's Problem » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:22 am

I think if you stab somebody 11 times, regardless of circumstances, it's a little excessive.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Rightey » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:32 am

If someone tried to stab me to death, I don't think I would really be all there when defending myself. I mean, we're not really being given a lot of information here so we don't know how long the fight lasted, but 11 stab wounds could easily be inflicted on someone in a very short amount of time.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Cuttooth » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:32 am

If he wasn't at further risk of attack after being stabbed then presumably it is no longer self defense, especially if his retaliation (11 times!) is deemed excessive. It also maybe depends on who made the situation violent first (article doesn't really say who shoved who)?

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Saint of Killers » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:45 am

Rightey wrote:If someone tried to stab me to death, I don't think I would really be all there when defending myself. I mean, we're not really being given a lot of information here so we don't know how long the fight lasted, but 11 stab wounds could easily be inflicted on someone in a very short amount of time.


And that's why it's manslaughter and not murder. But I understand what you're saying. (That normal reactions goes out the window after you've been stabbed.)

Maybe the fact the homeless man was stabbed in the back indicates he turned away and the other guy pursued him? If that's the case then it could be argued the pursuer wasn't in further danger but chose to escalate an already awful situation.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Return_of_the_STAR » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:26 am

Under uk law (I don’t know the Australian laws) he would have gone too far to be acquitted under self defence. The difficulty is that it’s very difficult to get into the mindset of those involved at the time of the incident. I would find it very hard to remain controlled in that situation. Self defence is all about doing what’s necessary to neutralise the threat. If someone has attacked you with a knife, killing them could be justified but only if you had no other choice. From the sounds of the description of the incident he went too far under our law.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Moggy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:43 am

Somebody Else's Problem wrote:I think if you stab somebody 11 times, regardless of circumstances, it's a little excessive.


Yeah 11 times goes beyond self-defence. The guy could argue that he temporarily lost his mind after being stabbed, but it'd still be manslaughter.

There was a case over here where a farmer (Tony Martin) shot a burglar and was then arrested and jailed. People were up in arms (not literally ;) ) as they felt the farmer was defending himself or that the burglars had it coming. But the law found him guilty because he shot the burglar in the back as the burglar was running away, which destroyed the idea it was self defence.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by OrangeRKN » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:11 am

Sounds like manslaughter to me, neither person being blameless.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Skarjo » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:24 am

Is this a CoD perk?

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Kezzer » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:26 am

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Qikz » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:31 am

It's manslaugher because he killed someone while not necessarily intending to. Self defense doesn't give you the right to kill someone.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by BID0 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:49 am

Moggy wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:I think if you stab somebody 11 times, regardless of circumstances, it's a little excessive.


Yeah 11 times goes beyond self-defence. The guy could argue that he temporarily lost his mind after being stabbed, but it'd still be manslaughter.

There was a case over here where a farmer (Tony Martin) shot a burglar and was then arrested and jailed. People were up in arms (not literally ;) ) as they felt the farmer was defending himself or that the burglars had it coming. But the law found him guilty because he shot the burglar in the back as the burglar was running away, which destroyed the idea it was self defence.

He also baited the person to burgle his place on this instance which is why he was originally found guilty for murder rather than manslaughter as it was pre-planed.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Rocsteady » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:57 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:Under uk law (I don’t know the Australian laws) he would have gone too far to be acquitted under self defence. The difficulty is that it’s very difficult to get into the mindset of those involved at the time of the incident. I would find it very hard to remain controlled in that situation. Self defence is all about doing what’s necessary to neutralise the threat. If someone has attacked you with a knife, killing them could be justified but only if you had no other choice. From the sounds of the description of the incident he went too far under our law.

Yeah it's a tough one. None of us really know how we'd react in this situation. Does sound excessive retribution, you've really got to lose your mind to stab someone 11 times.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Preezy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:02 am

I see you've played knifey stabby before

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by LightWanderer » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:15 am

Maximum sentence for manslaughter in Australia is 25 years. Neither man was blameless but Hargrave-McKey was provoked and viciously attacked by Thomas. As others have pointed out, an attack like that will lead to us not having our most right-mind impulses when defending ourselves. I would give him five years and then look at probation on good behavior.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Karl_ » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:53 pm

I think you have to look at the whole context and all the facts. Stabbing someone who stabbed you could need anything between "slap on the wrist" and "locked up for a long time" depending on the details and you can't really tell from a news story. Was the guy a violent person looking for an excuse to use deadly force, or was he a normal guy who panicked and saw red after an unprovoked stabbing? There's no way we can know for sure as casual observers. It'll come out in court.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Ironhide » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:11 pm

Somebody Else's Problem wrote:I think if you stab somebody 11 times, regardless of circumstances, it's a little excessive.


This.

Self defence shouldn't require actually killing your assailant.

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Vermilion » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:18 pm


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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Moggy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:11 pm

I saw on Facebook the other day that somebody I went to school with was facing a jail sentence. He was always a wrong ‘un but nobody was saying what he had done.

He’s been sentenced now so the story is out there.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... nt-3458456

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PostRe: Stabbing Victim Pulls Knife From His Stomach to Kill Attacker
by Abacus » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:22 pm

If your defense response has been triggered, you're thinking with a different part of your brain, I'd say.

I don't think you're responsible for your actions, and actually, then, is it even a crime? I mean, technically yes it is, but should it be?

Plus, I've seen enough horror movies to know that even though your enemy is down, he's coming back again unless you stove his head in with a shovel.

If attacked with a knife, I would not know what the proportionate response would be, in the heat of the moment. Doubt I'd have time to confer, either.

I'd say 1 hour community service, or a murder yellow card and a speed awareness course.


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