Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.

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sawyerpip
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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by sawyerpip » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:15 am

Yeah, I don't quite understand the views that the lack of jeopardy harmed the series because we knew who would survive and who wouldn't. Like, main characters rarely die in media. Were these people watching the latest Spider-Man film and on the edge of their seat worried that he was going to snuff it fighting Doc Ock 20 minutes into the runtime?

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Tomous » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:19 am

sawyerpip wrote:Yeah, I don't quite understand the views that the lack of jeopardy harmed the series because we knew who would survive and who wouldn't. Like, main characters rarely die in media. Were these people watching the latest Spider-Man film and on the edge of their seat worried that he was going to snuff it fighting Doc Ock 20 minutes into the runtime?



Yeah but the comparison is knowing Doc Oak is going to walk away completely unscathed too. Add in knowing Leia and Luke would be absolutely fine too and it did take something away from the excitement, in my view. Which again, is why I think they should have taken the story in a different direction and not used Leia/Luke.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by speedboatchase » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:20 am

captain red dog wrote:The only problem with the Reva bit is that it felt pointless as we knew Luke, Owen and Beru were in no danger. I know that's the same for the Vader fight, but episode 3 had already proved you can do a great segment whilst the viewer knows the ending. I think it would have been more effective to somehow wrap up Reva's role in the previous episode. But it's a minor gripe.

If they do a season 2, I think it's time to use some of this deep fake tech as best they can, and go for a whole series in flashback to the Clone Wars whilst Obi Wan gets training from Qui Gon in the present. There is a lot of stuff they can mine from the Clone Wars era which won't mess Canon up and it's time we actually saw some of it in live action.


Training for what though? Losing on purpose to inspire Luke?

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Parksey » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:23 am

Yeah I've been quite torn on the series as a whole and it's been very wonky. It definitely needed shoring up in certain areas. I'm always a bit wary of squeezing in loads of existing characters having yet another adventure of a lifetime between their other adventure of a lifetime, but the core of Obi Wan's PTSD, Vader's vengeance and then both coming to terms with things was ultimately worth it. 

But it has some really shoddy parts. The opening was fine, and the ending was good. But the middle was mediocre. It felt very much like a TV show, like 24 or something, where you have a set up situation, some conflict and an escape for a good guy/bad guy and a cliffhanger to set up a conflict for next week. Episodes 2+4 just felt like Obi Wan being chased to another planet, having an encounter with the enemy and then getting away to another planet, where it happened all over again. 

It would have definitely worked better as a film. You'd have had the Leia rescue tied up in the second third, probably bump Reva off as the opening to the final bit and then the Obi Wan/Vader fight and their character development as the end. I'd probably keep Episode 1 and 6, and then chop the end of 2 with the end of 5 and Reva getting bumped. 

The writing has been poor and while I know that on the internet we pick holes in some banal gooseberry fool, but stuff should have been a lot tighter. It's felt weird at times too, though maybe this is because it's my first SW TV series and I'm watching actors in roles I'm used to seeing in movies. But the direction has been awkward and scenes have felt off - like Obi Wan being chased round a quarry, which had a weird feel to it. Again, the whole structure of most of the episodes as a chase sequence lessened it I think. 

I've enjoyed seeing the main actors in their roles though some of the supporting cast have been corny. Ultimately I've felt it's got a core story, with Obi wan and Vader, with merit in telling their character development. But it's got side stuff that has been pants, it's had fan service that's worked and stuff that hasn't. It's narrowed the universe by having the kid adventures of Leia and Luke involved.

It's messed with canon a little bit but, true to the original canon-fuck in ESB, it's sort of done it in a way that you can make it fit and take a somewhat logical suspension of disbelief. It's had some really naff moments. It's got stuff that should have been cut. It should have had at least another pass. It's something that I think I could have been easily edited and changed to be a bit tighter. Some parts have made little sense and have been poor writing to hit plot development marks.

Ironically then, that the whole series feels a bit like the prequels to me. Which I did like, but are heavily flawed.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Jenuall » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:25 am

Please, this show isn't fit to be in the same conversation as World at War!

World at War as presented by Justin Lee Collins perhaps:


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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Moggy » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:35 am

Tomous wrote:
sawyerpip wrote:Yeah, I don't quite understand the views that the lack of jeopardy harmed the series because we knew who would survive and who wouldn't. Like, main characters rarely die in media. Were these people watching the latest Spider-Man film and on the edge of their seat worried that he was going to snuff it fighting Doc Ock 20 minutes into the runtime?



Yeah but the comparison is knowing Doc Oak is going to walk away completely unscathed too. Add in knowing Leia and Luke would be absolutely fine too and it did take something away from the excitement, in my view. Which again, is why I think they should have taken the story in a different direction and not used Leia/Luke.


Did you find that a problem in the prequel movies and other SW TV shows?

It goes for most stuff though. Did anybody expect Sauron to be defeated in FotR? Or Khan to die in the first half hour of Wrath of Khan? Voldemort in the first Harry Potter movie?

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Tomous » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:48 am

Moggy wrote:
Tomous wrote:
sawyerpip wrote:Yeah, I don't quite understand the views that the lack of jeopardy harmed the series because we knew who would survive and who wouldn't. Like, main characters rarely die in media. Were these people watching the latest Spider-Man film and on the edge of their seat worried that he was going to snuff it fighting Doc Ock 20 minutes into the runtime?



Yeah but the comparison is knowing Doc Oak is going to walk away completely unscathed too. Add in knowing Leia and Luke would be absolutely fine too and it did take something away from the excitement, in my view. Which again, is why I think they should have taken the story in a different direction and not used Leia/Luke.


Did you find that a problem in the prequel movies and other SW TV shows?

It goes for most stuff though. Did anybody expect Sauron to be defeated in FotR? Or Khan to die in the first half hour of Wrath of Khan? Voldemort in the first Harry Potter movie?



Well no, because everyone had read the books ;)

I don't see that as quite the same thing as it's the start of their stories and there's still plenty of directions things can go in. The nature of this story was based around Leia being kidnapped, Obi Wan meeting Darth Vader again and at the end, a plot against Luke. We know from the start that everyone is going to end up exactly where they started. There's really not much room for anything else, and they didn't focus much on any other characters-bar Reva I suppose (and perhaps they should have made her an even greater focus of the story, as the actress was very good).

And with the overall story being predictable and a little dull they really needed to make the journey more interesting and the quality dropped significantly in the middle with the directing and writing at a real low for Star Wars. Some of those action sequences in eps 3 and 4 were real turds. I do think 6 was much better in that respect, if they'd maintained that quality throughout, I'd probably have felt more positively about the series.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by sawyerpip » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:49 am

Tomous wrote:
sawyerpip wrote:Yeah, I don't quite understand the views that the lack of jeopardy harmed the series because we knew who would survive and who wouldn't. Like, main characters rarely die in media. Were these people watching the latest Spider-Man film and on the edge of their seat worried that he was going to snuff it fighting Doc Ock 20 minutes into the runtime?



Yeah but the comparison is knowing Doc Oak is going to walk away completely unscathed too. Add in knowing Leia and Luke would be absolutely fine too and it did take something away from the excitement, in my view. Which again, is why I think they should have taken the story in a different direction and not used Leia/Luke.


That's a fair point, although I would still find it odd if one of the main points of excitement from a film was drawn from whether the villain lives or dies.

I agree that I'd have preferred they went a different direction with the show, but I didn't watch the first episode and think "well I know where characters x, y and z end up so this is ultimately pointless". It just seems like a lazy criticism to me, so much of storytelling is about the journey not the ending.

Last edited by sawyerpip on Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Parksey » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:51 am

I think it is a valid criticism to have against "filler" content between existing content.

Conflict is key to all drama, so you have to look at how these shows create conflict.

Where Obi Wan did conflict well, was in the character development of Obi Wan himself and Vader. It was conflict between and within these characters. I think it worked really well and ultimately as pants as the middle episodes of this series were, it does make it worthwhile for a prequel fan like me. It messes a little bit with ANH canon and tries its best to mitigate this and I don't think it makes the confrontations there any weaker (I'm not that familiar with ANH though so might be wrong).

Where conflict falls down in Obi Wan is when it's putting characters in peril. There's little suspense in characters' fates and the viewer doesn't have any impetus to see how a conflict is resolved, as we know it will be and that all characters will be fine. Yet it's clear from the way it's presented that we, as viewers, are meant to find the situation perilous.

Where the series should have focused itself was in the character development stuff. It was much, much stronger there.

It was really weak in a lot of the peril. Naff chase scenes, characters escaping only to be pursued again in the very next episode.

It might not have been as boombastic, but they could have scaled it down and just made the focus Obi Wan and Vader's struggles with the past post Episode 3, and with each other.

I realise they needed something to draw Obi Wan out, and the Leia stuff was their card there (and it was nice to see his interactions with Leia at the end, and she was part of his peace in coming to terms with his/Anakin's legacy, that it wasn't all failure). But they had to repeatedly put her in different amounts of peril throughout 4-5 episodes.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Moggy » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:55 am

Tomous wrote:I don't see that as quite the same thing as it's the start of their stories and there's still plenty of directions things can go in. The nature of this story was based around Leia being kidnapped, Obi Wan meeting Darth Vader again and at the end, a plot against Luke. We know from the start that everyone is going to end up exactly where they started. There's really not much room for anything else, and they didn't focus much on any other characters-bar Reva I suppose (and perhaps they should have made her an even greater focus of the story, as the actress was very good).


But you knew most of what would happen in the prequel movies. You knew Anakin, Obi-Wab, Yoda etc were all going to live. You knew Anakin was going to turn bad. You knew the Jedi would be destroyed and an evil Emperor would rise up. You knew C3-P0 and R2-D2 would have a memory loss over who anybody was. You knew Anakin would have kids etc etc.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Tomous » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:58 am

Moggy wrote:
Tomous wrote:I don't see that as quite the same thing as it's the start of their stories and there's still plenty of directions things can go in. The nature of this story was based around Leia being kidnapped, Obi Wan meeting Darth Vader again and at the end, a plot against Luke. We know from the start that everyone is going to end up exactly where they started. There's really not much room for anything else, and they didn't focus much on any other characters-bar Reva I suppose (and perhaps they should have made her an even greater focus of the story, as the actress was very good).


But you knew most of what would happen in the prequel movies. You knew Anakin, Obi-Wab, Yoda etc were all going to live. You knew Anakin was going to turn bad. You knew the Jedi would be destroyed and an evil Emperor would rise up. You knew C3-P0 and R2-D2 would have a memory loss over who anybody was. You knew Anakin would have kids etc etc.



I agree, the prequels are rubbish and all ;)

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Dowbocop » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:59 am

Moggy wrote:
Tomous wrote:
sawyerpip wrote:Yeah, I don't quite understand the views that the lack of jeopardy harmed the series because we knew who would survive and who wouldn't. Like, main characters rarely die in media. Were these people watching the latest Spider-Man film and on the edge of their seat worried that he was going to snuff it fighting Doc Ock 20 minutes into the runtime?



Yeah but the comparison is knowing Doc Oak is going to walk away completely unscathed too. Add in knowing Leia and Luke would be absolutely fine too and it did take something away from the excitement, in my view. Which again, is why I think they should have taken the story in a different direction and not used Leia/Luke.


Did you find that a problem in the prequel movies and other SW TV shows?

It goes for most stuff though. Did anybody expect Sauron to be defeated in FotR? Or Khan to die in the first half hour of Wrath of Khan? Voldemort in the first Harry Potter movie?

If there's one thing that gives a Star Wars film a seal of quality it's an unexpected villain death halfway through...

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Jenuall » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:02 am

Moggy wrote:
Tomous wrote:I don't see that as quite the same thing as it's the start of their stories and there's still plenty of directions things can go in. The nature of this story was based around Leia being kidnapped, Obi Wan meeting Darth Vader again and at the end, a plot against Luke. We know from the start that everyone is going to end up exactly where they started. There's really not much room for anything else, and they didn't focus much on any other characters-bar Reva I suppose (and perhaps they should have made her an even greater focus of the story, as the actress was very good).


But you knew most of what would happen in the prequel movies. You knew Anakin, Obi-Wab, Yoda etc were all going to live. You knew Anakin was going to turn bad. You knew the Jedi would be destroyed and an evil Emperor would rise up. You knew C3-P0 and R2-D2 would have a memory loss over who anybody was. You knew Anakin would have kids etc etc.

I think it's about whether there is space for a compelling story to be told within the gaps of that is already known (as well as whether there is actually value/need in telling that story). The original trilogy left quite a substantial amount of scope for telling what had come before - there weren't huge lore dumps about prior events, just hints and loose references - there was room to tell a story about "how we got here" despite the limitations of knowing where we would end up. With more recent Star Wars content they are increasingly trying to force meaningful stories out of ever diminishing gaps within the lore and I think that does have more of a detrimental effect on their impact compared to the situation with the prequels.

But also yeah, the prequels are still kind of crap despite this extra capacity to have done something good!

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by sawyerpip » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:03 am

Parksey wrote:
I think it is a valid criticism to have against "filler" content between existing content.

Conflict is key to all drama, so you have to look at how these shows create conflict.

Where Obi Wan did conflict well, was in the character development of Obi Wan himself and Vader. It was conflict between and within these characters. I think it worked really well and ultimately as pants as the middle episodes of this series were, it does make it worthwhile for a prequel fan like me. It messes a little bit with ANH canon and tries its best to mitigate this and I don't think it makes the confrontations there any weaker (I'm not that familiar with ANH though so might be wrong).

Where conflict falls down in Obi Wan is when it's putting characters in peril. There's little suspense in characters' fates and the viewer doesn't have any impetus to see how a conflict is resolved, as we know it will be and that all characters will be fine. Yet it's clear from the way it's presented that we, as viewers, are meant to find the situation perilous.

Where the series should have focused itself was in the character development stuff. It was much, much stronger there.

It was really weak in a lot of the peril. Naff chase scenes, characters escaping only to be pursued again in the very next episode.

It might not have been as boombastic, but they could have scaled it down and just made the focus Obi Wan and Vader's struggles with the past post Episode 3, and with each other.

I realise they needed something to draw Obi Wan out, and the Leia stuff was their card there (and it was nice to see his interactions with Leia at the end, and she was part of his peace in coming to terms with his/Anakin's legacy, that it wasn't all failure). But they had to repeatedly put her in different amounts of peril throughout 4-5 episodes.



This sums it up pretty well. I think my initial post was more a reaction to comments and reviews I've read elsewhere than in this thread to be fair. I fully agree that the character development stuff was where the show was at its best, rather than trying to invoke any sense of peril where there was none. I've just seen a common complaint against the show of "we know these people survive and where they end up so what's the point" and it just seems very basic to me, like there is a lot to explore there further than "oh no Obi-Wan might get killed here". Whether the show was successful at it is another question and I agree there are definitely criticisms to be made or things to discuss, I just don't think knowing the end position of the characters means a story is ultimately pointless.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Tomous » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:06 am

Jenuall wrote:With more recent Star Wars content they are increasingly trying to force meaningful stories out of ever diminishing gaps within the lore and I think that does have more of a detrimental effect on their impact compared to the situation with the prequels.


Yep, nailed it.


Looking at the slate of TV shows coming up though hopefully they're moving away from the core stuff and exploring other things

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Parksey » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:13 am

Yeah, I've said before that inserting load sof extra stories often cheapens characters and their development in existing content.

It makes their existing story less like the defining moment in their lives, and instead their story reads like a fan-made Wikipedia page, with a character having about a dozen adventures of a lifetime.

Like I said, I think this series worked best when it focused on the character development and conflict within Obi Wan and Vader. If Obi Wan's exile was spent planet hopping, sneaking into imperial bases and mixing with OT characters, then that makes ANH slightly diminished.

But for me, it's far more believable and acceptable to think that Obi Wan spent his exile in torment over his regrets and the past and then eventually was able to overcome this and approach the Luke of ANH with renewed hope. Likewise, it's easy to see how Vader would be tormented by his past and events on Mustafar and how he got the point in ANH where he is basically the Emperor's lap dog (but with that conflict pushed deep down to be reawakened by Luke).

I do not trust Disney to not take the easy way out though, especially if there's a season 2. I fear they'd cram it with more crazy Obi Wan adventures and more interaction with existing characters. They won't have the restraint.

What's more annoying is that the gap between the OT and Sequels desperately needs more content as it's so half baked. But the gap between the Prequels and OT has been so thoroughly mined.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by speedboatchase » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:20 am

Parksey wrote:Yeah, I've said before that inserting load sof extra stories often cheapens characters and their development in existing content.

It makes their existing story less like the defining moment in their lives, and instead their story reads like a fan-made Wikipedia page, with a character having about a dozen adventures of a lifetime.

Like I said, I think this series worked best when it focused on the character development and conflict within Obi Wan and Vader. If Obi Wan's exile was spent planet hopping, sneaking into imperial bases and mixing with OT characters, then that makes ANH slightly diminished.

But for me, it's far more believable and acceptable to think that Obi Wan spent his exile in torment over his regrets and the past and then eventually was able to overcome this and approach the Luke of ANH with renewed hope. Likewise, it's easy to see how Vader would be tormented by his past and events on Mustafar and how he got the point in ANH where he is basically the Emperor's lap dog (but with that conflict pushed deep down to be reawakened by Luke).

I do not trust Disney to not take the easy way out though, especially if there's a season 2. I fear they'd cram it with more crazy Obi Wan adventures and more interaction with existing characters. They won't have the restraint.

What's more annoying is that the gap between the OT and Sequels desperately needs more content as it's so half baked. But the gap between the Prequels and OT has been so thoroughly mined.


No one would watch that. Whatever Lucas's flaws, there's a reason people want to fill in the gaps for what he created or hinted at in throwaway dialogue (Kessel Run). Everything between the OT and Sequels was whatever JJ Abrams wrote on a napkin and gave to Kathleen Kennedy, safe in the knowledge he would only be directing the first one :lol:

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Moggy » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 am

speedboatchase wrote:
Parksey wrote:Yeah, I've said before that inserting load sof extra stories often cheapens characters and their development in existing content.

It makes their existing story less like the defining moment in their lives, and instead their story reads like a fan-made Wikipedia page, with a character having about a dozen adventures of a lifetime.

Like I said, I think this series worked best when it focused on the character development and conflict within Obi Wan and Vader. If Obi Wan's exile was spent planet hopping, sneaking into imperial bases and mixing with OT characters, then that makes ANH slightly diminished.

But for me, it's far more believable and acceptable to think that Obi Wan spent his exile in torment over his regrets and the past and then eventually was able to overcome this and approach the Luke of ANH with renewed hope. Likewise, it's easy to see how Vader would be tormented by his past and events on Mustafar and how he got the point in ANH where he is basically the Emperor's lap dog (but with that conflict pushed deep down to be reawakened by Luke).

I do not trust Disney to not take the easy way out though, especially if there's a season 2. I fear they'd cram it with more crazy Obi Wan adventures and more interaction with existing characters. They won't have the restraint.

What's more annoying is that the gap between the OT and Sequels desperately needs more content as it's so half baked. But the gap between the Prequels and OT has been so thoroughly mined.


No one would watch that. Whatever Lucas's flaws, there's a reason people want to fill in the gaps for what he created or hinted at in throwaway dialogue (Kessel Run). Everything between the OT and Sequels was whatever JJ Abrams wrote on a napkin and gave to Kathleen Kennedy, safe in the knowledge he would only be directing the first one :lol:


The Mandalorian would suggest you are wrong. ;)

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Nibble » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:39 am

speedboatchase wrote:
captain red dog wrote:The only problem with the Reva bit is that it felt pointless as we knew Luke, Owen and Beru were in no danger. I know that's the same for the Vader fight, but episode 3 had already proved you can do a great segment whilst the viewer knows the ending. I think it would have been more effective to somehow wrap up Reva's role in the previous episode. But it's a minor gripe.

If they do a season 2, I think it's time to use some of this deep fake tech as best they can, and go for a whole series in flashback to the Clone Wars whilst Obi Wan gets training from Qui Gon in the present. There is a lot of stuff they can mine from the Clone Wars era which won't mess Canon up and it's time we actually saw some of it in live action.


Training for what though? Losing on purpose to inspire Luke?


I realise you're being flippant but presumably the primary function of Qui Gon''s training would be to teach Obi-wan how to do the transition to Force ghost thing upon dying.

I do wonder about how much of this show was constructed around the script that was written for the proposed Obi-wan movie that we didn't get. The thinness of the material in episodes 2 through 5 suggests to me that what we did get would have been greatly improved with a much shorter running time.

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PostRe: Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi | Limited Series, finale out now on Disney+.
by Parksey » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:48 am

It would have worked much, much better as a movie, or as an extended TV event.

The middle was largely pants. The episode format cheapened it. We had 3 or 4 episodes where it was just Obi Wan going to a planet, encountering the bad guys and then escaping to another planet. It made the flow jarring and meant repeatedly stocking Leia or someone back in danger.


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