GRcade

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:28 pm**

I think it's a sort of linguistic relativism that I can't really hear the difference between f and th because my accent doesn't really disambiguate.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:37 pm**

OrangeRKN wrote:I think it's a sort of linguistic relativism that I can't really hear the difference between f and th because my accent doesn't really disambiguate.

Surely you either make the sound using your bottom lip or your tongue?

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:12 pm**

No I think they're pretty much the same

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:52 pm**

...huh?

Say the word 'bother'. To begin the second syllable do you apply pressure on your bottom lip or your tongue?

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:29 pm**

Yeah, OR think of it as "Can I bother you" Vs "Bovvvered!!!1!1!" might help.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:31 pm**

Yeah it would be pretty difficult to function if you didn’t distinguish between f/v/th sounds

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:34 pm**

That's not a growth wrote:Yeah, OR think of it as "Can I bother you" Vs "Bovvvered!!!1!1!" might help.

Karl got bullied into changing his accent by people like you!

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:35 pm**

Jenuall wrote:Yeah it would be pretty difficult to function if you didn’t distinguish between f/v/th sounds

I understand what OR means. It's not that you physically can't hear the difference if someone sits down with you and goes "vvv, ththth", it's that your brain interprets them as the same in everyday speech because they aren't distinguished in your accent.

EDIT: Example: if you know lots of people who say "ven" for "then", your brain knows they're the same so you stop noticing the difference. If you've only ever heard "then", "ven" will sound really weird to you.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:37 pm**

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:Karl got bullied into changing his accent by people like you!

Well, I wouldn't say it was bullying, but yes, it was the cumulative effect of lots of comments like that.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:42 pm**

Karl_ wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah it would be pretty difficult to function if you didn’t distinguish between f/v/th sounds

I understand what OR means, at least for th/v. It's not that you physically can't hear the difference if someone sits down with you and goes "vvv, ththth", it's that your brain interprets them as the same in everyday speech because they aren't distinguished in your accent.

They will be distinguished in your accent though, I cannot think of a single regional dialect that presents no difference between those phonemes. Some examples maybe be interchangeable but not every instance

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:45 pm**

Karl_ wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah it would be pretty difficult to function if you didn’t distinguish between f/v/th sounds

I understand what OR means, at least for th/v. It's not that you physically can't hear the difference if someone sits down with you and goes "vvv, ththth", it's that your brain interprets them as the same in everyday speech because they aren't distinguished in your accent.

EDIT: Example: if you know lots of people who say "ven" for "then", your brain knows they're the same so you stop noticing the difference. If you've only ever heard "then", "ven" will sound really weird to you.

You're blowing my mind now – for some reason I assumed words like 'then' would be exempt from this craziness.

Would you really pronounce full sentences like (for example) "First you do vis, ven you do vat..."?!

I'm not trying to be cruel, I'm genuinely surprised/curious!

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:50 pm**

Right can of worms I’ve opened here. I thought a v for a th was peak cockney. The more you know.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:51 pm**

I'm sorry but I really laughed at Ob's post. I can now only see Karl as Count Dracula :wub:

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:55 pm**

Jenuall wrote:Yeah it would be pretty difficult to function if you didn’t distinguish between f/v/th sounds

It's easier van you fink

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:58 pm**

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm**

Victor Mildew wrote:

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:02 pm**

When I was at school back home I knew plenty of people who predominantly used the "v" sound in placed of the voiced "th", and the "f" sound in place of the voiceless "th". I mean, Jenuall's obviously right in that it wasn't every single word, and I wasn't trying to claim that. I'm not trying to make out like the sounds are physically indistinguishable, or always used indistinguishably, I'm trying to say that if your natural accent often conflates these sounds then your brain stops noticing the difference in all sorts of contexts.

I'm trying to think of "rules" but I'm not a linguist, you know? It's hard also because I've now almost completely lost the accent. I think to be fair that voiced "th"s at the start of words (this, then, they, the) are probably exempt. But words beginning with voiceless "th"s can still turn into "f"s (I still sometimes have to stop myself saying "fink" instead of "think").

All I can say is that the sounds genuinely sounded the same to me in all sorts of instances of speech before I moved to a posher bit of the country and it was pointed out to me that I was saying them "wrong" (i.e. in a way that sounded weird to those people).

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm**

I knew someone a while ago who always pronounced milk as "malk".

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm**

Tsunade wrote:I knew someone a while ago who always pronounced milk as "malk".

Only Brummies will get this.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:11 pm**

Karl_ wrote:When I was at school back home I knew plenty of people who predominantly used the "v" sound in placed of the voiced "th", and the "f" sound in place of the voiceless "th". I mean, Jenuall's obviously right in that it wasn't every single word, and I wasn't trying to claim that. I'm not trying to make out like the sounds are physically indistinguishable, or always used indistinguishably, I'm trying to say that if your natural accent often conflates these sounds then your brain stops noticing the difference in all sorts of contexts.

I'm trying to think of "rules" but I'm not a linguist, you know? It's hard also because I've now almost completely lost the accent. I think to be fair that voiced "th"s at the start of words (this, then, they, the) are probably exempt. But words beginning with voiceless "th"s can still turn into "f"s (I still sometimes have to stop myself saying "fink" instead of "think").

All I can say is that the sounds genuinely sounded the same to me in all sorts of instances of speech before I moved to a posher bit of the country and it was pointed out to me that I was saying them "wrong" (i.e. in a way that sounded weird to those people).

I'm not trying to be a dick here, so apologies if it came across that way!

I get the original point about sometimes struggling between the sounds as I do this myself and I also think it's down to trying to "unlearn" a way that you have been speaking for whatever reason. I'm from Gloucester so grew up speaking like some kind of West country / Midlands hybrid and know full well the frustrations of being mocked for an accent!

My kids recently got into the Kid Normal series of books which have a lead character called Murph - the number of times when I've been reading to them and called him Murv or Mirth instead is ridiculous! :fp:

Dual wrote:
Tsunade wrote:I knew someone a while ago who always pronounced milk as "malk".

Only Brummies will get this.

I kind of do this, although it's closer to "melk"

GRcade

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Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

Re: TCRT 9: The TCRT thread Wars (retroactively titled TCRT9: Episode IV – A New TCRT)

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