The Work Thread

I think a lot of the problem is too many people go to uni with the idea that a degree gives you a jump up the ladder (I don't think this is the students fault). When I was in 6th form the teachers were literally telling you that if you didn't go to uni then your chances of getting a decent job are massively reduced. This isn't necessarily a lie, but you do have to be prepared to start at the very bottom of the ladder and in many ways a degree hinders this.

I quit 6th form after the first year as I applied for, and was given, a job offer in the exact sort of job I would be likely to get on leaving uni (basic administration - I was studying business studies). I started at the bottom rung, built up a very decent number of contacts and specialist IT system skills (being able to operate a complicated and outdated system) and within 4 years was working in another company at almost double the rate despite only having basic GCSEs. Now I am in a situation where I am massively outstripping all my mates who went to uni, and have the opportunity to get degree level qualifications that my company will fund and provide time to study.

Having said that, I need to get my finger out and take up the opportunity to get qualifications courtesy of my company. I know all too well that if we have big cutbacks and I find myself redundant I would be absolutely screwed as I would have no choice but to take a 50-60% wage cut which would knacker my mortgage.

I also personally think companies don't value degrees as much as people think they do. The perception inside big companies is that degree students don't have a lot of common sense and have wasted a potential 4 years of experience in the classroom (just how I think they perceive students, not how I perceive them). My advice to anyone who still has the choice between leaving school at 16 and going to uni is to think very carefully about the options because Uni really isn't the answer for every student and sometimes you would be better off getting the experience at a younger age and avoiding the uni fees.

Too many students study the soft subjects and gain easy degrees and that creates a perception overall that degrees aren't worth anything when comparing candidates.

captain red dog wrote:I think a lot of the problem is too many people go to uni with the idea that a degree gives you a jump up the ladder (I don't think this is the students fault). When I was in 6th form the teachers were literally telling you that if you didn't go to uni then your chances of getting a decent job are massively reduced. This isn't necessarily a lie, but you do have to be prepared to start at the very bottom of the ladder and in many ways a degree hinders this.

I quit 6th form after the first year as I applied for, and was given, a job offer in the exact sort of job I would be likely to get on leaving uni (basic administration - I was studying business studies). I started at the bottom rung, built up a very decent number of contacts and specialist IT system skills (being able to operate a complicated and outdated system) and within 4 years was working in another company at almost double the rate despite only having basic GCSEs. Now I am in a situation where I am massively outstripping all my mates who went to uni, and have the opportunity to get degree level qualifications that my company will fund and provide time to study.

Having said that, I need to get my finger out and take up the opportunity to get qualifications courtesy of my company. I know all too well that if we have big cutbacks and I find myself redundant I would be absolutely screwed as I would have no choice but to take a 50-60% wage cut which would knacker my mortgage.

I also personally think companies don't value degrees as much as people think they do. The perception inside big companies is that degree students don't have a lot of common sense and have wasted a potential 4 years of experience in the classroom (just how I think they perceive students, not how I perceive them). My advice to anyone who still has the choice between leaving school at 16 and going to uni is to think very carefully about the options because Uni really isn't the answer for every student and sometimes you would be better off getting the experience at a younger age and avoiding the uni fees.

Too many students study the soft subjects and gain easy degrees and that creates a perception overall that degrees aren't worth anything when comparing candidates.

One of my wife's best friends left school at 16 and now is a Project Manager on over £500 a day. That smiley is because I'm strawberry floating raging with jealousy.

To be honest it works, I remember applying for part time work back when I was 16 and when all you get back is an automated response rejecting you (or no response at all) it really makes you feel like not bothering again.

Eighthours wrote:One of my wife's best friends left school at 16 and now is a Project Manager on over £500 a day. That smiley is because I'm strawberry floating raging with jealousy.

Well I'm not on anywhere near that much, so I'll join you in that rage of jealousy!

Eighthours wrote:Move to Bristol.

Yeah, things are getting a little tighter here, but my wife works for a recruitment agency and there are still fuckloads of jobs around in this city. As for the rest of the country, if you're not getting interviews despite applying for loads of jobs, there is one obvious thing that needs sorting: your CV. There are very, very few people who can write a decent CV - learn to do this and you're IMMEDIATELY waaaaaaaaay up the list. A decent CV doesn't just rely on experience, it's also how the information is presented. Would much rather interview someone whose CV reads well and appears to have a personality (while being professional) than some boring jobsworth who's had 5 long-term jobs, all of them seemingly the most boring things imaginable, presented in a dull-as-ditchwater way. Your CV is your foot in the door. If you have a well-written one, you WILL get interviews. Even if your experience doesn't seem to suggest that you'd be an automatic fit for the job.

Remember that even if there are 370 people applying for a vacancy, a serious amount of them won't be even mildly capable. Or literate. Or non-serial-killer material. Realistically, once the joke CVs are in the bin you'll be up against 10-20 other people, which are far better odds. Also, while it's tempting to apply for everything, only go for vacancies that you'll actually be able to do. Finally, if you're not going through some horrible automated online application form (they suck), personalise the application. Not through *shudder* head shots or anything gooseberry fool like that, but a professionally written cover letter.

I hope that some of this helps. It's not about applying for everything, it's about applying smartly.

As an aside to Eight's - very - true points, I once invested in a CV writing book and it was amazing. Hasn't failed to at least get me an interview every time I submit my CV in its current guise. The main point I'd add though is that you really should tailor your CV to the job your applying for (making sure it's ticking off as many job ad requirements as possible). This'll - quickly - tell them how you meet most or all of their criteria.

For anyone who cares, I've uploaded a highly-tailored CV I submitted recently that got me my last interview. Granted I never got the job (still not had the feedback I've requested for that), but regardless, the layout has consistently gone down very well and has been commented on positively during the interview. (I've removed most of the personal stuff and left in some so you see some examples). Hopefully it might help someone bag an extra interview or two

http://www.gamerguides.co.uk/temp/sample_cv.doc

I think what is ridiculous it the jobs where you earn less than you would if you lived off benefits, this needs to change, wages should be increased or something. It's ludicrousness.

I agree with the value of degrees. Unless in a vocational subject, a degree in some cases does little to separate yourself. Graduate employers want people with degtree, not because they're anything fancy, but as a minimum entry requirrement. It's what you do outside the degree that counts. I left 6th form in second year to go to uni (nursing course) and dropped out that at the end of first year. I landed well, and was doing better than most of the kids I went to school with who were graduating with Daddies credit card. Most of them have contacts so have an easier time finding jobs, but even then they're still getting on their feet. I've done the crackin job in London with a fancy wage and I left with really quite poor AS levels, and nothing certificate wise from uni.

Then I jacked it all in to come to Scotland and be a student again. Took a job that was 'beneath me' and it did my head in. Hence the long commute to London now. Why get bossed about but idiots for minimum wage on awful shifts when I can make the same wage in 4 days working somewhere more respectable with much better colleagues. It's a trek and it'll cost a fortune, but I need a job - so sacrifices have to be made.

I can't really add anything new to this thread but but I certainly echo everything CRD and Eighthours have said, especially concerning CVs. I've recently gone over mine and until I was done with it I didn't realise how average my old one was.

Andrew Mills Sample CV wrote:able to quickly build rapport with new people using my highly effective communication skills.

When reading that I had a flashback to Pell's many years ago, when you were upstairs speed running REmake.

"strawberry float OFF YOU mummy strawberry floating C*NT!"

Eighthours wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I think a lot of the problem is too many people go to uni with the idea that a degree gives you a jump up the ladder (I don't think this is the students fault). When I was in 6th form the teachers were literally telling you that if you didn't go to uni then your chances of getting a decent job are massively reduced. This isn't necessarily a lie, but you do have to be prepared to start at the very bottom of the ladder and in many ways a degree hinders this.

I quit 6th form after the first year as I applied for, and was given, a job offer in the exact sort of job I would be likely to get on leaving uni (basic administration - I was studying business studies). I started at the bottom rung, built up a very decent number of contacts and specialist IT system skills (being able to operate a complicated and outdated system) and within 4 years was working in another company at almost double the rate despite only having basic GCSEs. Now I am in a situation where I am massively outstripping all my mates who went to uni, and have the opportunity to get degree level qualifications that my company will fund and provide time to study.

Having said that, I need to get my finger out and take up the opportunity to get qualifications courtesy of my company. I know all too well that if we have big cutbacks and I find myself redundant I would be absolutely screwed as I would have no choice but to take a 50-60% wage cut which would knacker my mortgage.

I also personally think companies don't value degrees as much as people think they do. The perception inside big companies is that degree students don't have a lot of common sense and have wasted a potential 4 years of experience in the classroom (just how I think they perceive students, not how I perceive them). My advice to anyone who still has the choice between leaving school at 16 and going to uni is to think very carefully about the options because Uni really isn't the answer for every student and sometimes you would be better off getting the experience at a younger age and avoiding the uni fees.

Too many students study the soft subjects and gain easy degrees and that creates a perception overall that degrees aren't worth anything when comparing candidates.

One of my wife's best friends left school at 16 and now is a Project Manager on over £500 a day. That smiley is because I'm strawberry floating raging with jealousy.

That's mental.

Eighthours wrote:

Frank wrote:

Eighthours wrote:Finally, if you're not going through some horrible automated online application form (they suck), personalise the application. Not through *shudder* head shots or anything gooseberry fool like that, but a professionally written cover letter.

Christ, the online applications are the absolute worst thing about finding jobs at the moment. Why have I wasted all this time writing the perfect CV, if every bloody employer wants me to copy and paste exactly what I've written in the CV into separate stupid boxes in separate bloody windows. Don't be lazy, just read the sodding thing. It's genuinely baffling that they expect everyone to waste two hours filling in each of the 13 pointless bloody segments.

I reckon that's probably why they do it, actually. The only people who can be bothered to work through the whole depressing process are the ones who actually want a job.

Says a lot that I've actually had more luck sticking my CV on Monster (a few days after I posted it someone who employs contractors for Ford got in touch to say that Ford's chief engineer wanted a graduate for their latches department in a few months, and as I've got experience with latches, would I be interested?) than I have with these stupid online application graduate schemes, though.

Your theory is indeed why some companies like those hideous online applications. There are so many people out there who just spam their CVs to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Also the only real reason to go to 6th form is to get into Uni in the first place. I speak as a Teacher when I say A-levels really are nothing more than Uni entrance exams. If you're not thinking of going to Uni, do something more productive like an apprenticeship.

You can make a lot of cash in Project Management if you are good at your job and work hard, otherwise I'd probably not go for it.

I wouldn't go for it anyway, looks boring as gooseberry fool

It's tough out there. I was made redundant and have been looking for a while.

I am stuck in a catch 22 situation, I can't take a low paid job (below 15.5k here) as it doesn't cover my rent and let me survive. I can't move because I don't have a deposit and I am not working. My Housing Benefit is £220 short of my rent each month and I have been selling stuff to cover this.

I have been applying left, right and centre. 95% don't respond. I am currently waiting to hear about a job I had an interview for on the 3rd March. The process for that job started in Janaury with online tests and competencies, which I passed to get the interview.

It's depressing. I now am currently trying to raise £280 to cover next months bills via the selling of stuff.

My parents had a situation like that. They both work in security which is normally contract work. They were working together and the contract ended. They had to sign on. They were pushed to apply for minimum wage jobs, which wouldn't cover the mortgage and living expenses. Their life insurance paid for the mortgage while they were unemployed, which they would have lost had they gone back to work on a poor wage.

Doesn't help my Dads got a criminal record (nothing major, and it's been spent for years) which excludes him from applying to jobs which need a CRB check. Infact it's now been made illegal to knowing apply for jobs like that if you have a criminal record. But of course the jobcentre went on about stopping his money if he didn't 'apply to them anyway'.

Didn't stop him headbutting some dick at the cash machine at the weekend mind

Drumstick wrote:

Andrew Mills Sample CV wrote:able to quickly build rapport with new people using my highly effective communication skills.

When reading that I had a flashback to Pell's many years ago, when you were upstairs speed running REmake.

"strawberry float OFF YOU mummy strawberry floating C*NT!"

qupe wrote:It's tough out there. I was made redundant and have been looking for a while.

I am stuck in a catch 22 situation, I can't take a low paid job (below 15.5k here) as it doesn't cover my rent and let me survive. I can't move because I don't have a deposit and I am not working. My Housing Benefit is £220 short of my rent each month and I have been selling stuff to cover this.

I have been applying left, right and centre. 95% don't respond. I am currently waiting to hear about a job I had an interview for on the 3rd March. The process for that job started in Janaury with online tests and competencies, which I passed to get the interview.

It's depressing. I now am currently trying to raise £280 to cover next months bills via the selling of stuff.

Sorry to hear that, does sound like a bind. Good luck for the job, though, hope you get it.

SimonM_89 wrote:Some great discussion going on in here, do we have a Grc Work thread? This should be it .

I've PM'd Dig Dug, who wrote the opening post, to ask him if he'd mind a title change, as you're right - this is a good, grown-up discussion we're all having here and it'd be nice to have a thread for this kind of subject!

If you change the thread name it'll derail and silly arguments will ensue.

It's just the rules.

Long live the work thread!

\o/

Eighthours wrote:Remember that even if there are 370 people applying for a vacancy, a serious amount of them won't be even mildly capable. Or literate. Or non-serial-killer material. Realistically, once the joke CVs are in the bin you'll be up against 10-20 other people, which are far better odds.

good point

Let's share some interview anecdotes. Always fun.

I interviewed when the company I work for was expanding a few years back, and was called by reception to be told that the first candidate had arrived and was in the meeting room. So my director and I went to see him. We knocked on the door and entered, only to find this guy slumped over the desk. He looked dead! To make matters worse, rather than leaping to attention at our arrival he just kinda slovenly lazed back, his head gradually lolloping up to a standard position over a full ten seconds. At which point I noticed that he had the eyes of someone who was brain-dead.

He didn't get the job.

I strawberry floating LOVE the following interview answer. My wife's a recruitment consultant, and she had a candidate out on interview. The people this candidate was seeing asked her all the usual questions about where do you see yourself in 5 years, etc etc, and then they asked her about her strengths and weaknesses. Her weakness? "Men."