Hyperion wrote:Karl wrote:Hyperion wrote:Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties.
Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?
No, I was commenting on the statistical fact that the lion's share of support in the UK for leaving the EU will come from within England. In my experience - having, like others, yet to see an actual rational argument against EU membership - the foundation on which the "no" vote is built upon is petty Little England-ism at best and, at worst, outright xenophobia. (If you disagree, have a chat to the hardcore of the "out" campaign: the UKIP voter.)
I obviously didn't mean that I think all the English (including myself?) are small-minded. I've met some fairly bright Englishmen. It's bizarre that I've had to clarify that.
You don't have to clarify it, it's just that if people are going to jump up Nick/Cal's arse when they incorrectly say things like immigrants/muslims are terrorists then you should be a bit more careful when attaching actions to groups.
Obviously the lion's share of support for the UK leaving the EU will come from England as it's a statistical fact that the English make up the lion's share of the UK population.
Anyway enough about (some) greedy lions.
In the same way that it's a statistical fact that English people are most in favour of leaving the EU compared to the rest of the UK, and vote for the more American style, right-wing parties.
I take more issue with Karl saying he finds Americans odd or upsetting, I love Americans. They're great fun.
There are definitely rational reasons for leaving the EU and to act dismissive and pretend that there aren't could be viewed as being almost as small minded as many of the people who support leaving to protect our way of lief and kepp migrnts out.
OrangeRakoon articulated my main issue with it; it is laughably, horribly undemocratic in the main. This doesn't bother me perhaps as much as it should, due to my liberal tendencies and the laws being passed - in the main - roughly going along with my world view, but realistically it should concern us all. The EU is a closed shop, a monolithic structure that only big business lobbyists and the largest of NGOs can hope to penetrate. Constituents views barely register and initiatives such as ECIs to promote democratic mechanisms have been shown to be completely unwieldy and fatally flawed in a number of ways.
Another issue is wastefulness. Millions upon millions of Euros are being spent on, things.. that will not benefit citizens of Europe in any meaningful way. The levels of spending out here are absolutely insane.
Having said that, I'm almost completely certain I will be voting to stay in the EU. I think economically it is the right thing to do, and the overarching idea of the EU is one that should absolutely be praised. I do worry for the future, though, and if it continues to grow without addressing the democratic deficit I could forsee a future where I begin to get scared of the power it holds.