GRcade

Moggy wrote:This is something I don’t understand with Brexit. You wanted more democracy? From the UK? The country with a Queen as head of state and an unelected (some are still hereditary or church bishops FFS!) House of Lords? With a FPTP system to elect MPs?

The EU is far more democratic than our system.

Well firstly the Queen is virtually powerless and as long as the monarchy maintains it's neutrality I have no issue.

Absolutely the House of Lords should be completely reformed and be entirely elected with no concessions to hereditary peers or the Lords Spiritual. That doesn't contradict Brexit at all, we just haven't had the issue put to vote. If we had a vote I would be 100% for complete reform.

Voting reform, yes absolutely. We had a chance when the Lib Dems negotiated a coalition but Clegg strawberry floated it with AV. That was another absolute catastrophic mistake by 'Sir' Nick.

The EU needs severe reform and seem to be unwilling to do anything about it. Put a reformed EU on the ballot with an elected commission and elected MEPs and a significant chunk of the Leave vote would be won over.

DML, I don't believe the government have any clue at this point the kind of deal they want. I highly suspect it will be EU in all but name, but sure if that's the case I would change my vote. Obviously I can't do that "right now" as we don't have a second referendum, or any clue as to what the outcome of negotiations will actually be thanks to the illustrious Brexiteers in the cabinet!

captain red dog wrote:

Moggy wrote:This is something I don’t understand with Brexit. You wanted more democracy? From the UK? The country with a Queen as head of state and an unelected (some are still hereditary or church bishops FFS!) House of Lords? With a FPTP system to elect MPs?

The EU is far more democratic than our system.

Well firstly the Queen is virtually powerless and as long as the monarchy maintains it's neutrality I have no issue.

Absolutely the House of Lords should be completely reformed and be entirely elected with no concessions to hereditary peers or the Lords Spiritual. That doesn't contradict Brexit at all, we just haven't had the issue put to vote. If we had a vote I would be 100% for complete reform.

Voting reform, yes absolutely. We had a chance when the Lib Dems negotiated a coalition but Clegg strawberry floated it with AV. That was another absolute catastrophic mistake by 'Sir' Nick.

Your points do contradict each other though.

I am assuming that you do not advocate the break up of the UK in order to achieve voting reform/House of Lords reform? Westminster appear to be unwilling to do anything about any of that. It’s exactly the same situation as the EU (except the EU is actually more democratic), so why would you want to leave one and not the other?

The EU needs severe reform and seem to be unwilling to do anything about it. Put a reformed EU on the ballot with an elected commission and elected MEPs and a significant chunk of the Leave vote would be won over.

If the nation states wanted reform, then the EU would be reformed. The EU itself will do what it is told by the elected governments of the European nations.

We’ve all been told by the right wing media about the evil nature of the unelected EU bureaucrats, but what about it needs such urgent reform in your opinion? The Commission is appointed by the elected governments of the member states and the MEPs are elected via proportional representation. What is so bad about that?

I absolutely guarantee that if we had elected EU commissioners then a large proportion of Leavers would still hate it, instead of moaning about the “unelected Commissioners!” they would moan that it being elected meant we were part of a federal EU. They would moan that Britain’s elected Commissioner could be outvoted by the other Commissioners. They would moan if the elected UK Commissioner proposed something in the EU that the UK Parliament didn’t agree with. They would moan if the UK elected Commissioner didn’t propose something that the UK Parliament wanted. They would moan if Poland’s elected Commissioner voted against us. They would end up voting in Farage as the Commissioner and he’d be there delaying and disrupting everything for his own end.

It’s very easy to say “it needs reform!!”, but reform into what? What’s wrong with it and what needs fixing? And why is it better to leave (at a major cost to ourselves) than to work from within to reform it to be more the way we want?

captain red dog wrote:DML, I don't believe the government have any clue at this point the kind of deal they want. I highly suspect it will be EU in all but name, but sure if that's the case I would change my vote. Obviously I can't do that "right now" as we don't have a second referendum, or any clue as to what the outcome of negotiations will actually be thanks to the illustrious Brexiteers in the cabinet!

I suppose the bit I'm lost on is how you can not know the kind of deal? All the deals are gooseberry fool. So surely that'd enough evidence to have changed your mind? What is there left to question?

So after insisting she wouldn't release the full Brexit analysis, Theresa May has quit that line and is going to release it.

Lagamorph wrote:So after insisting she wouldn't release the full Brexit analysis, Theresa May has quit that line and is going to release it.

Strong and stable.

Expect David Davies to say he did it but the dog has eaten it.

Rex Kramer wrote:Expect David Davies to say he did it but the dog has eaten it.

And when questioned about it, Davis will say “I don’t even own a dog! What are you talking about?”

The Mail

twitter.com/dmreporter/status/958719965506437120

FT reporting EU rejected a trade deal the includes services.

How shocking

It's a good thing the vast majority of our economy isn't service driven.

Forgive my ignorance but when "services" is being referred to in the context of Brexit negotiations are they talking about just the financial services sector or something more all encompassing?

Jenuall wrote:Forgive my ignorance but when "services" is being referred to in the context of Brexit negotiations are they talking about just the financial services sector or something more all encompassing?

Anything in the tertiary sector is covered.
Retail,banking, travel, real estate, media and communications. To name but a few.

tolrag wrote:

Jenuall wrote:Forgive my ignorance but when "services" is being referred to in the context of Brexit negotiations are they talking about just the financial services sector or something more all encompassing?

Anything in the tertiary sector is covered.
Retail,banking, travel, real estate, media and communications. To name but a few.

Ah cool, thanks for the info.

Presumably that must add up to a reasonable slice of our GDP as a nation? I suspect the true scale of our financial services is not as much as the bankers would have you believe but even so that alone must be fairly substantial?

Jenuall wrote:

tolrag wrote:

Jenuall wrote:Forgive my ignorance but when "services" is being referred to in the context of Brexit negotiations are they talking about just the financial services sector or something more all encompassing?

Anything in the tertiary sector is covered.
Retail,banking, travel, real estate, media and communications. To name but a few.

Ah cool, thanks for the info.

Presumably that must add up to a reasonable slice of our GDP as a nation? I suspect the true scale of our financial services is not as much as the bankers would have you believe but even so that alone must be fairly substantial?

It reportedly makes up 80% of our GDP.

well strawberry float

Financial services alone brings in roughly the same as the entire annual NHS budget I think.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-42896996

Eugh.

Squinty wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-42896996

Eugh.

It's especially stupid because:

Meanwhile, government analysis has emerged suggesting the cost of cutting EU migration would be much greater than the benefits of a US trade deal.

BuzzFeed News has claimed government studies on the economic impact of Brexit say reducing migration from the bloc into the UK would nullify the benefits of any trade deal struck with Washington.

Ministers agreed on Wednesday to let MPs see another leak from the same impact analysis which suggests the economy would be worse off as a result of a number of possible Brexit scenarios.

Madness.

I seen that. She won't get what she wants. She will capitulate on this. It's absolutely pointless putting up red lines.

Stupid.

I have to wonder if she's telling the EU "Look, we will go along with this eventually, let me just say we won't so I can say I tried while you guys pretend I'm not accepting it ok?"