Brexit

Imagine the gooseberry fool that will go down if the Scottish referendum vote is 51% - 49%. I wonder how much sway the voice of the people will carry then.

Rex Kramer wrote:Imagine the gooseberry fool that will go down if the Scottish referendum vote is 51% - 49%. I wonder how much sway the voice of the people will carry then.

Most of the vocal Brexit supporters online seem to want to throw Scotland out of the UK anyway.

Rex Kramer wrote:Imagine the gooseberry fool that will go down if the Scottish referendum vote is 51% - 49%. I wonder how much sway the voice of the people will carry then.

It would be delicious watching the same Tory shitheels who are calling for 'national unity' now try to attempt to justify partitioning Scotland.

Whether Scotland can re-enter the EU and to what timeframe will heavily decide the vote. Scotland cannot go it alone, the country would be in such dire circumstances it would unbelievable. You talk about Nationalism to the detriment of the economy that would be it.

Salmond as usual sidestepped the question on BBC News last night about Spain vetoing the whole thing.

Photek wrote:

bear wrote:

Garth wrote:

Squinty wrote:May's Brexit Irish border plan is 'nice words' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-i ... s-38829372

I shouldn't have posted this cause we don't listen to experts anymore.

That really is going to be unenforceable. What a mess!

It's a game of chicken at this stage. The government's in Dublin and London both know there has to be some form of border controls introduced but don't want to be the ones to admit that as Unionists/Nationalists will try to make hay by blaming the Irish/British for the economic hardship a border will cause.

I disagree to a certain extent, first off all the blame is clearly aimed at the UK and secondly, our government has clearly outlined that any border situation will have nothing to do with the republic, the game of chicken is over, the blame is cast.

They haven't clearly outlined what form the border will take which was my key point. The Irish/EU and UK governments are still talking in very non specific terms about the "best solution" and "as little disruption as possible". Based on the hard Brexit line that May is pushing both sides know that there almost certainly will need to be border checks introduced but neither side want to be the one to say that.

Rhubarb wrote:

Moggy wrote:

KKLEIN wrote:Some people don't seem to be coming to the realisation that it's going to be difficult for a number of years. Maybe an entire decade.

We never really recovered from the credit crunch of 10 years ago. Add in Brexit, the governments plan to turn us into a tax haven and the prospect of a Tory government until at least 2025 and I think even a decade is being optimistic for the average British person. The real poor in society are utterly strawberry floated.

Is this actually true? I only left home about ten years ago so have no real perspective on what things were like pre credit crunch.

Earnings are still down from 2008 for everywhere except London, although as a whole the UK has surpassed levels before the recession. Basically, if you work outside the city you are probably worse off now than you were the better part of a decade ago. So, yes, saying we never really recovered is probably accurate for the vast majority of people.

Not that you would know this from listening to the Conservatives, who still use the term "long term plan" without any irony.

Brexit just got better.

Embarrassing error in Brexit white paper claims British workers are entitled to 14 weeks holiday

A chart in the paper comparing British and EU standards for holiday leave and maternity leave claims Britons are entitled to 14 weeks paid holiday a year – ten further than stipulated under EU law.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59561.html

Knoyleo wrote:Brexit just got better.

Embarrassing error in Brexit white paper claims British workers are entitled to 14 weeks holiday

A chart in the paper comparing British and EU standards for holiday leave and maternity leave claims Britons are entitled to 14 weeks paid holiday a year – ten further than stipulated under EU law.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59561.html

Seen that earlier. More evidence this paper was shat out in no time. Apparently, it was late being delivered to Parliament today as well.

Knoyleo wrote:Brexit just got better.

Embarrassing error in Brexit white paper claims British workers are entitled to 14 weeks holiday

A chart in the paper comparing British and EU standards for holiday leave and maternity leave claims Britons are entitled to 14 weeks paid holiday a year – ten further than stipulated under EU law.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 59561.html

Please tell me that is legally binding and we now all get 14 weeks a year.

Regarding Sturgeon calling another referendum, If she called it right now she'd pretty much destroy her ambition of independent Scotland forever.

People keep saying stuff like "Well at least now we'll get indyref2" and "Indyref 2 when?" without realising that general support for Scottish independence has gone down, not up. If another referendum were to be called now and the result was another No, then it'd destroy any potential argument for another referendum anytime in the next 50-100 years.

Even in the unlikely result of a Yes vote, that would be Scotland cutting its nose to spite its face. Scotland would then be facing the prospect of leaving both the UK AND the EU, and no, there is no possibility of Scotland retaining its EU membership. The EU made that perfectly clear during the last referendum, EU law says that Scotland would not and could not retain it's EU membership, despite Alec Salmond's dreamworld insistence to the contrary (Much like his currency union delusions).
Any change in the law would require all of the other EU member states to agree, but more than that the change in EU law AND full Scottish independence would need to be completed before the 2 year Article 50 timeframe was over. After that it doesn't matter since Scotland is out of the EU anyway so there's no membership to retain. Fast track membership for Scotland would never gain support from every EU nation either, even taking a Spain veto out of the equation.
That means gaining Westminster permission for a referendum, campaigning, holding the referendum, winning, negotiating the terms of Scotland's exit and then actually exiting all within 2 years, and hoping the EU can change their laws in that time as well.

Scotland would basically be put into the Hard Brexit No deal position and then be starting from scratch. Amongst all that economic turmoil it'd need to find some way to adopt the Euro in order to begin the application process for joining the EU, then be faced with economic tests lasting years before any hope of joining the EU could begin to become a reality.

Leaving the UK would, in the short to mid term, absolutely be a bigger disaster for Scotland than Brexit, and there's no guarantee of it being any better in the long term either, and the odds certainly wouldn't be good.

As much as some would like independent Scotland it won't work, and they wouldn't be in the eu anyway, it is no better than brexit really as it is voting for a worse situation and now it is like voting for even more uncertainty on top of the brexit uncertainty.

Yes, ironically whilst Brexit greatly weakens Britain it also means Scottish independence is off the table for a while since it would be pouring more uncertainty and disruption on the situation. Even though most people in Scotland hate the politics of the English they probably value their ability to lead everyday life without disruption by seismic political events a lot more.

At least a decade before it is a realistic prospect again, probably once the Brexit situation has settled and the price the UK paid for it is clear (making the idea of pushing for independence with the prospect of regaining that much more attractive).

In the meantime I think Scotland should focus on raking back as much power from Westminster as possible. They will need it if they want to protect themselves from the destructive course that will likely be pursued in England if the tories are serious about they threat of turning the place into a tax haven and running down the welfare state (hopefully just bluster and they will be much more amenable when the actual negotiations start).

Scottish independence might seem better if England gets totally screwed from Brexit. To be honest while I don't think it'll be good, I doubt it'll be a total gooseberry fool show.

It is no different from leaving the Eu for the uk, it is leaving because "we can be great and do it better ourselves" there isn't enough of an economy to support itself especially as he whole point is they want to be in the eu and won't be because that's not how it works.

If I lived in Scotland I would probably vote for the chance to rejoin the EU one day, even if it wasn't immediately clear when that would be.

The idea that Spain would veto Scotland literally forever is pretty facile, I think. Disallowing an independent Scotland who met (or was willing to meet) all criteria for entry from joining for such a petty, nakedly political reason would be embarrassing for the whole EU, and there would be immense diplomatic pressure on Spain to yield.

I agree with Karl. I actually think I might move there to give them a bit of a push.

If I was Scotland, I'd be telling Spain that supporting our EU entry would mean we would support their Gibraltar claim...

Meep wrote:

Rhubarb wrote:

Moggy wrote:

KKLEIN wrote:Some people don't seem to be coming to the realisation that it's going to be difficult for a number of years. Maybe an entire decade.

We never really recovered from the credit crunch of 10 years ago. Add in Brexit, the governments plan to turn us into a tax haven and the prospect of a Tory government until at least 2025 and I think even a decade is being optimistic for the average British person. The real poor in society are utterly strawberry floated.

Is this actually true? I only left home about ten years ago so have no real perspective on what things were like pre credit crunch.

Earnings are still down from 2008 for everywhere except London, although as a whole the UK has surpassed levels before the recession. Basically, if you work outside the city you are probably worse off now than you were the better part of a decade ago. So, yes, saying we never really recovered is probably accurate for the vast majority of people.

Not that you would know this from listening to the Conservatives, who still use the term "long term plan" without any irony.

Yeah I know the figures support the statement, I was more asking out of interest if anecdotally anyone had noticed a drastic change in their quality of life since. Obviously a lot of the people affected aren't the same demographic as Grcade users.

Rhubarb wrote:

Meep wrote:

Rhubarb wrote:

Moggy wrote:

KKLEIN wrote:Some people don't seem to be coming to the realisation that it's going to be difficult for a number of years. Maybe an entire decade.

We never really recovered from the credit crunch of 10 years ago. Add in Brexit, the governments plan to turn us into a tax haven and the prospect of a Tory government until at least 2025 and I think even a decade is being optimistic for the average British person. The real poor in society are utterly strawberry floated.

Is this actually true? I only left home about ten years ago so have no real perspective on what things were like pre credit crunch.

Earnings are still down from 2008 for everywhere except London, although as a whole the UK has surpassed levels before the recession. Basically, if you work outside the city you are probably worse off now than you were the better part of a decade ago. So, yes, saying we never really recovered is probably accurate for the vast majority of people.

Not that you would know this from listening to the Conservatives, who still use the term "long term plan" without any irony.

Yeah I know the figures support the statement, I was more asking out of interest if anecdotally anyone had noticed a drastic change in their quality of life since. Obviously a lot of the people affected aren't the same demographic as Grcade users.

My salary is pretty much the same as it was in 2009. Living costs have risen so I think I'm worse off. I'm quite a good subject as I'm still in the same job as I was in 2008. I've only had two 1% pay rises since 2010. The rest were pay freezes.

Question Time: 'I was going to vote Remain but I had enough of no bent bananas in Aldi so voted to Leave.'