Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:01 pm

EU playing hardball

UK does not fully understand EU's red lines on Brexit, says Barnier

Here is another quote from Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, at the committee meeting this morning. He said he thought the UK did not understand the EU’s red lines. He set them out like this:

[Number one], the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital are indivisible. We cannot let the single maket unravel.

Number two, there can by no sector by sector participation in the single market.

Number three, the EU must maintain full sovereignty for deciding regulations.

These three points were already made clear, very clear, by the European council and by the European parliament. But I am not sure whether they have been fully understood across the Channel.

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Victor Mildew
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PostRe: Brexit
by Victor Mildew » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:04 pm

Yeah but at least the Pattel family 5 doors down will have to go back where they came from now right? I MEAN THAT'S WHY WE VOTED LEAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE

Hexx wrote:Ad7 is older and balder than I thought.
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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:07 pm

Photek wrote:Europe announcing a trade agreement with Japan later today.


I'm wondering how long this deal took to get sorted.

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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit
by Photek » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:16 pm

Squinty wrote:
Photek wrote:Europe announcing a trade agreement with Japan later today.


I'm wondering how long this deal took to get sorted.

Well thats just it, reading into it, it could take a couple of years to be finalized, not as long as the Canadian deal hopefully. Funnily enough the UK helped with the deal back in 2013! :fp:

It took the EU and Canada three years to sign a final text, following the agreement in principle in October 2013, which parallels the latest EU-Japan milestone. The Canada deal almost collapsed when a Belgian region threatened to veto the treaty. Now mostly in force, the EU-Canada deal still needs to clear the final hurdle of ratification by at least 38 national and regional assemblies.

The timetable means it is likely the UK will have left the EU by the time the Japan treaty comes into force.

When negotiations began with Tokyo in 2013, Britain was one of the biggest cheerleaders. The then UK trade minister described talks as an “important step towards liberalising trade between two of the world’s largest economies”.

Following the Brexit vote, Theresa May has vowed to leave the customs union, meaning British exporters are unlikely to see any benefits from the EU deal.

The deal means Japan will drop tariffs on many valuable European imports, including chocolate, pasta and some types of cheese.

In return for liberalisation of Japan’s highly protected dairy market, Europe has compromised by agreeing to lower tariffs on Japanese imported cars, although new rules will be phased in to help European carmakers deal with the change.

Services and an array of technical standards are also covered by the treaty, which negotiators say goes far further than old-style tariff-cutting agreements.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/japan-and-eu-expected-to-sign-trade-deal-after-breakthrough-in-talks

Cheaper Japanese cars FTW!

Last edited by Photek on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit
by BID0 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:16 pm

Those 3 points are completely reasonable. All of it relies on one another. If a concession is made on any point then the whole thing falls apart and doesn't work any more.

Hopefully our representatives understand this sooner rather than later.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:22 pm

Guardian comments section

"The EU will accept Britain's terms - they don't have the democratic mandate to impose tariffs customs restrictions which will create unemployment in Europe."

At what point are these people going to "get it"?

Edit

And yet Japan and the EU will be signing a Free Trade at or before the G20 Meeting.
Just so those who wish to Remain realise what a bitter, twisted and vindictive EU they want to be part of.
It is also reported that China & Germany are working on a Free-Trade deal, I presume this means the EU will be marched to the table by Germany and forced to sign.
However the UK has poured £Billions into the EU, we are close neighbours, but Barnier says free-trade deal is "impossible" with UK. Come on Remainers - think about the sort of people you want to be associated with - they never loved us , the only 'married' us so they could take our money, destroy our culture and asset strip our country.

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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit
by BID0 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:00 pm

:lol: christ

And on the Guardian too. You'd think the readership there would be of a different mindset. Maybe it's just troll accounts.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:04 pm

BID0 wrote::lol: christ

And on the Guardian too. You'd think the readership there would be of a different mindset. Maybe it's just troll accounts.


All comment sections are plagued by far right trolls. I sometimes wonder if it is the same few people who just have multiple accounts each. At least I hope it is and that there really aren’t that many twats out there*.

*the referendum proved there are that many twats but I am in denial that these banana splits actually exist.

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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit
by Photek » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:16 pm

In all seriousness, doesn't the UK manufacture Japanese cars? Those plants might get moved so they don't have to pay a tarriff after this deal is complete.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:24 pm

Photek wrote:In all seriousness, doesn't the UK manufacture Japanese cars? Those plants might get moved so they don't have to pay a tarriff after this deal is complete.


They need us more than we need them. We will just walk away with no deal! Play hardball, it's the only thing Johnny Foreigner understands! FISH!

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:29 pm

Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:In all seriousness, doesn't the UK manufacture Japanese cars? Those plants might get moved so they don't have to pay a tarriff after this deal is complete.


They need us more than we need them. We will just walk away with no deal! Play hardball, it's the only thing Johnny Foreigner understands! FISH!


Or to put it in UKIP terms

It is quite a simple matter for the EU to continue with a simple tariff free agreement to continue to trade with the UK post Brexit.

The EU already has free trade agreements with 58 countries that are not members of the customs union. Such agreements may or may not have tariffs but nothing would be simpler than to continue the existing arrangements.

If Mr Barnier insisted that we adopt simple WTO terms the tariffs would affect German car manufacturers, French wine producers far more than UK industry or agriculture.

Tariffs under WTO rules are either 0% or low on most products, and Mr Barnier should know that they cannot be discriminatory. Concerning customs arrangements the UK and the EU are already signatories to international agreements in order to simplify customs checks across borders.

China, Japan and the USA to name just three, export enormous quantities of goods to the EU without even even having formal trade agreements and the UK would be able to do exactly the same when we leave.

This is an early negotiation position from the EU, so of course they are trying to sound harsh, what else would expect from them?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:33 pm

Hexx wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:In all seriousness, doesn't the UK manufacture Japanese cars? Those plants might get moved so they don't have to pay a tarriff after this deal is complete.


They need us more than we need them. We will just walk away with no deal! Play hardball, it's the only thing Johnny Foreigner understands! FISH!


Or to put it in UKIP terms

It is quite a simple matter for the EU to continue with a simple tariff free agreement to continue to trade with the UK post Brexit.

The EU already has free trade agreements with 58 countries that are not members of the customs union. Such agreements may or may not have tariffs but nothing would be simpler than to continue the existing arrangements.

If Mr Barnier insisted that we adopt simple WTO terms the tariffs would affect German car manufacturers, French wine producers far more than UK industry or agriculture.

Tariffs under WTO rules are either 0% or low on most products, and Mr Barnier should know that they cannot be discriminatory. Concerning customs arrangements the UK and the EU are already signatories to international agreements in order to simplify customs checks across borders.

China, Japan and the USA to name just three, export enormous quantities of goods to the EU without even even having formal trade agreements and the UK would be able to do exactly the same when we leave.

This is an early negotiation position from the EU, so of course they are trying to sound harsh, what else would expect from them?


Ahh it's all actually really simple and it's just the EU trying to scare us.

Nothing to worry about then and now onwards to freedom and prosperity!

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:38 pm

Moggy wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:In all seriousness, doesn't the UK manufacture Japanese cars? Those plants might get moved so they don't have to pay a tarriff after this deal is complete.


They need us more than we need them. We will just walk away with no deal! Play hardball, it's the only thing Johnny Foreigner understands! FISH!


Or to put it in UKIP terms

It is quite a simple matter for the EU to continue with a simple tariff free agreement to continue to trade with the UK post Brexit.

The EU already has free trade agreements with 58 countries that are not members of the customs union. Such agreements may or may not have tariffs but nothing would be simpler than to continue the existing arrangements.

If Mr Barnier insisted that we adopt simple WTO terms the tariffs would affect German car manufacturers, French wine producers far more than UK industry or agriculture.

Tariffs under WTO rules are either 0% or low on most products, and Mr Barnier should know that they cannot be discriminatory. Concerning customs arrangements the UK and the EU are already signatories to international agreements in order to simplify customs checks across borders.

China, Japan and the USA to name just three, export enormous quantities of goods to the EU without even even having formal trade agreements and the UK would be able to do exactly the same when we leave.

This is an early negotiation position from the EU, so of course they are trying to sound harsh, what else would expect from them?


Ahh it's all actually really simple and it's just the EU trying to scare us.

Nothing to worry about then and now onwards to freedom and prosperity!


Surely these free trade deals with no customs union do not cover all sectors and products. They will very rarely or never cover the financial sector which is the thing that will harm us the most coming out of the EU.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:51 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:Surely these free trade deals with no customs union do not cover all sectors and products. They will very rarely or never cover the financial sector which is the thing that will harm us the most coming out of the EU.


I am not sure what the scope of the Japan deal is, but the Canada one had a few exceptions, fisheries being one.

The thing the UKIP types don’t seem to realise is that these deals take YEARS to accomplish and even when agreed can be stopped by any of the EU member states before they become law. And even then it can take a decade for the deals to actually take effect, the Japan deal for instance is likely to not be fully implemented for 15 years while the various business interests get up to speed.

According to the UKIP vision, Britain in 2019 will be instantly signing a deal with the EU that will give us all the free trade we want. They think that there will be no real delays, that all 27 EU member states will agree to it and that the EU will want nothing back from us (e.g. free movement, membership fees to the EU).

They are living in a strawberry floating dreamworld.

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Meep
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PostRe: Brexit
by Meep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:08 pm

Of course, comprehensive trade deals usually take 7-10 years to complete if things go well. The point of A50 is that it was designed so that triggering it would be monumental act of self-harm, probably to deter any far right government from sabotaging the future of their country and potentially the whole union. No one actually thought anyone would be reckless enough to actually do it. After all, the number of countries seeking to join the EU is long, the process is time consuming integration highly involved. The UK begged to join and doing so allowed it to recover its economic fortunes from the dire situation in the early seventies. It was generally assumed that the only ones who would voluntarily decide to leave would be far right parties like the French National Front, who are best discouraged until a more sensible government can take back control.

A50 is like saying you can leave, but first you have to cut your arm off. The UK surprised everyone by asking for a bonesaw.

I'm kind of surprised there was not even an attempt to negotiate other leaving terms that did not involve the article; or involved an expanded time frame. If you genuinely wanted to leave that would be the sensible thing, after than blithely trigger the torture machine. Maybe there was behind closed doors and it completely failed...? I'd like to think even our current government was competent enough to at least try.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:12 pm

Meep wrote:Of course, comprehensive trade deals usually take 7-10 years to complete if things go well. The point of A50 is that it was designed so that triggering it would be monumental act of self-harm, probably to deter any far right government from sabotaging the future of their country and potentially the whole union. No one actually thought anyone would be reckless enough to actually do it. After all, the number of countries seeking to join the EU is long, the process is time consuming integration highly involved. The UK begged to join and doing so allowed it to recover its economic fortunes from the dire situation in the early seventies. It was generally assumed that the only ones who would voluntarily decide to leave would be far right parties like the French National Front, who are best discouraged until a more sensible government can take back control.

A50 is like saying you can leave, but first you have to cut your arm off. The UK surprised everyone by asking for a bonesaw.

I'm kind of surprised there was not even an attempt to negotiate other leaving terms that did not involve the article; or involved an expanded time frame. If you genuinely wanted to leave that would be the sensible thing, after than blithely trigger the torture machine. Maybe there was behind closed doors and it completely failed...? I'd like to think even our current government was competent enough to at least try.


All those accusations of the Remain camp peddling "Project Fear" are looking pretty strawberry floating stupid at the moment. :lol:

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KK
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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:08 pm

Liam Fox has complained that all MPs should now be wearing ties in the HOC, and that they should be English ties to support UK businesses post Brexit. Unfortunately he didn't say where to buy said ties.

Getting desperate now.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:10 pm

KK wrote:Liam Fox has complained that all MPs should now be wearing ties in the HOC, and that they should be English ties to support UK businesses post Brexit. Unfortunately he didn't say where to buy said ties.

Getting desperate now.


What is the point of this :lol:

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KK
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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:49 pm

Oh but he's not done, he wants more favourable coverage of Brexit from BBC News.

Guardian wrote:Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, has claimed the BBC would rather see Britain fail than Brexit succeed, making him the second Eurosceptic cabinet minister to attack the broadcaster for its coverage of the UK’s departure from the EU.

Fox, who unsuccessfully stood for the leadership of the Conservative party last year, made the comments in response to concerns from Tory MP Nigel Evans that negative media coverage was undermining efforts to make trade deals with non-EU countries.

Speaking in the House of Commons, Fox said: “It does appear that some elements of our media would rather see Britain fail than see Brexit succeed. I cannot recall a single time in recent times when I have seen good economic news that the BBC didn’t describe as ‘despite Brexit’.”

His comments came after Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the House of Commons, called for broadcasters to be “a bit patriotic” about Brexit during an interview with BBC Newsnight last month.

Labour veteran Barry Sheerman branded Fox’s intervention a “silly attack” on the BBC, and called for the minister to resign amid claims he had lost the confidence of manufacturers for “living in cloud cuckoo land” over Britain’s future.

Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrat chief whip, went on to describe Fox as “Donald Trump without the perma-tan” as he accused him of trying to shift attention away from his own department’s record.

“A government minister attacking the media in this way is a dangerous and misplaced intervention,” Carmichael said. “Mr Fox should get on with the work of government rather than trying to deflect from the failings of his department. It is extraordinary that Mr Fox feels it is appropriate to attack the media. He looks like Donald Trump without the perma-tan.

“He may, of course, be trying to distract us from the official data today that shows the number of jobs created by foreign investment fell by 9% last year.”

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... it-succeed

It's always the BBC's fault when things aren't going the way you want them to. I mean it's become almost the number one tell from Conservative, Labour (though mainly Corbyn fanatics) and the right wing newspapers that things are ultimately falling apart in your own backgarden.

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:00 pm

The BBC can't be optimistic about Brexit because they're not legally allowed to lie.

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