Brexit

Our best bits.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Regginator3
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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:34 pm

It's almost like FPTP is a farce or something.

Didn't UKIP and the Greens collectively get more votes than the Lib Dems in 2015 and collectively obtain about 1/4 of the amount of seats?

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Regginator3
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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:38 pm

Image
Seriously.

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Errkal
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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:41 pm

It is a fault of the system if you dont want a direct representative for your area.
Personally I like having a direct MP for my area (even if rightnow it is Amber Rudd).

It does also protect us from idiotic swings of racism. If you think gooseberry fool is bad now think how much worse it would be if UKIP had actual levels of power!

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm

When it keeps UKIP out, FPTP suddenly sounds like a wonderful system.... ;)

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Earfolds
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PostRe: Brexit
by Earfolds » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:56 pm

In 2011, we had the AV referendum, which was about changing the voting system from plurality voting to preferential voting. This would eliminate wasted votes, making each individual vote matter.

The voters overwhelmingly chose to keep the old system. The votes were so overwhelmingly in favour of FPTP (over twice as many as for AV) that the issue's been put to rest for a political lifetime.

I agree that changing the public's perception on voting is going to be difficult.

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: Brexit
by Grumpy David » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:04 pm

Evil Ted wrote:In 2011, we had the AV referendum, which was about changing the voting system from plurality voting to preferential voting. This would eliminate wasted votes, making each individual vote matter.

The voters overwhelmingly chose to keep the old system. The votes were so overwhelmingly in favour of FPTP (over twice as many as for AV) that the issue's been put to rest for a political lifetime.

I agree that changing the public's perception on voting is going to be difficult.


I think there were people who voted against changing it "because it wasn't proper PR" or to punish Clegg and the Lib Dems even though the slippery slope argument would be very persuasive in this situation. AV would have led to PR eventually.

AV is less proportional than FPTP but it would have been the first step towards PR.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:07 pm

Grumpy David wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:In 2011, we had the AV referendum, which was about changing the voting system from plurality voting to preferential voting. This would eliminate wasted votes, making each individual vote matter.

The voters overwhelmingly chose to keep the old system. The votes were so overwhelmingly in favour of FPTP (over twice as many as for AV) that the issue's been put to rest for a political lifetime.

I agree that changing the public's perception on voting is going to be difficult.


I think there were people who voted against changing it "because it wasn't proper PR" or to punish Clegg and the Lib Dems even though the slippery slope argument would be very persuasive in this situation. AV would have led to PR eventually.

AV is less proportional than FPTP but it would have been the first step towards PR.


That’s basically how I saw AV. It was a terrible system but it was a slight improvement on FPTP and would have led eventually to PR.

But it wasn’t to be and I don’t think we will see another referendum on the issue for a long time.

In fact, after the Brexit referendum, I don’t think we will see another UK wide referendum on any issue for a long long time. :lol:

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Earfolds
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PostRe: Brexit
by Earfolds » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:09 pm

Grumpy David wrote:AV is less proportional than FPTP but it would have been the first step towards PR.

It's funnier than that.

PR is AV with more than one winner.

Everything can be identical, just have more than one MP per constituency, and boom, it's proportional.

Or do what John Cleese suggested in 1987. Merge constituencies together, making them bigger, so you still have the same number of MPs in Parliament.

In PR, by-elections are done under straight AV, one winner.

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Tineash
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PostRe: Brexit
by Tineash » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:26 pm

Moggy wrote:Of course if everyone stopped thinking like that and voted for who they wanted then things might change. But people don't like the idea of "wasting" their vote and so vote based on who they think has a chance of winning. Or they vote based on which party they hate the most and so vote for somebody they think will beat the party they hate.


But that is just rational, vote-maximising behaviour under our electoral system.

"exceptionally annoying" - TheTurnipKing
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Photek
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Location: Dublin

PostRe: Brexit
by Photek » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:28 pm

KK wrote:There's a lot of positives to be had from the latest immigration figures should you look at them neutrally. Immigration from countries outside the EU up dramatically instead which is what I always believed would happen, more students choosing to study here, in excess of 10,000 refugees being accepted that may increase to 20,000, applications for British citizenship up. If you'd rather EU nationals be here instead, or want immigration to be falling, then maybe not so good news. But there is room for a much fairer immigration system here should the government of the day choose to implement one properly.

All this at a time Emmanuel Macron has unveiled his own hardline stance on immigration in France, with undocumented people being able to be kept in holding centres for up to 3 months, and sending people back to their country of origin much faster. But it is ironic that the EU is now tightening their immigration policies at a time we're leaving (partially because of it).

I'm so annoyed by this post! :lol: :x

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Kanbei
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PostRe: Brexit
by Kanbei » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:36 pm

Image

What the hell does Michael Gove look like? :lol:

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Brexit
by Cuttooth » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:36 pm

twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/966809408708767744



“We’re going to choose to follow the EU to the letter on everything, but please be clear this is our choice!”

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lex-Man » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:38 pm

Cuttooth wrote:

twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/966809408708767744



“We’re going to choose to follow the EU to the letter on everything, but please be clear this is our choice!”


That does make any god darn sense.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit
by Garth » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:55 pm

So in future we're going to do as we're told "on our own terms" (whatever that means) instead of having a say on all EU regulations? :lol:

Dat freedom from the EU!

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Regginator3
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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:27 am

Kanbei wrote:What the hell does Michael Gove look like? :lol:

He looks like, simultaneously, the worst education secretary and the best justice and environment secretaries we've had in the last several decades

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jimbob555
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PostRe: Brexit
by jimbob555 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:22 am

Image

closer to mad max brexit but not quite

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:26 am

Cuttooth wrote:

twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/966809408708767744



“We’re going to choose to follow the EU to the letter on everything, but please be clear this is our choice!”


Their much hyped meeting seems to have been very constructive.

EU response should be funny.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rex Kramer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:36 am

Kanbei wrote:Image

What the hell does Michael Gove look like? :lol:

The answer to this question is always

Image

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:43 am

We seem to have gone back to the Canada plus plus plus template, according to the FT.

Ehhhhhhhh.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:01 am

Cuttooth wrote:

twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/966809408708767744



“We’re going to choose to follow the EU to the letter on everything, but please be clear this is our choice!”


:lol:

That “solution” isn’t going to make anybody happy. Leavers will still feel like the EU are controlling us, Remainers will ask why we don’t just stay if we are going to copy all of the EU rules and regulations.

It would also store up a lot of trouble for the future if a future government decided to change some of the rules that we are copying.

And the EU are going to want more than the UK just saying “we promise to copy everything, honest!”.


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