Brexit

Lucien wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:If the EU was fair then the UK leaving wouldn't matter as the income would reduce by the rough same amount as their expenditure.

At least now we can feasibly trade with the EU without subsidising Poland, etc.

I think as a concept if you are a wealthy member of the EU then you should be helping out the poorer nations to some degree. People would disagree on to what extent but the EU clearly did a lot of good work throughout the poorer countries and poorer areas of the wealthier countries.

The general mentality mate. Do you honestly not want to help people that are not as fortunate as us? In a similar way, EU funding is what helps the poorest parts of the UK. You can bet Parliament won't want to give more money to Wales for instance, but through the EU it gets subsidies (which is what made the majority Pro-Brexit vote in Wales such a sting).

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:If the EU was fair then the UK leaving wouldn't matter as the income would reduce by the rough same amount as their expenditure.

At least now we can feasibly trade with the EU without subsidising Poland, etc.

Why?

Why not?

Think of it like a business. A startup gets an investment and becomes more profitable. Then there's more money being paid in to the EU to help other poorer nations.

Why are we even on this planet if we aren't going to move forward to a species towards something. It's a bit depressing if all we are going to do in life is work ourselves into a grave while destroying the planet in the process.

Moggy wrote:

captain red dog wrote:Brexit to blow a hole in the EU budget apparently:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40433450

Is anyone surprised by that?

Well I'm shocked, I thought we contributed hardly anything to Europe as Brits are lazy racists.

It was definitely greatly underplayed last year by many, despite being one of the fundamental arguments of both Leave campaigns.

captain red dog wrote:

Moggy wrote:

captain red dog wrote:Brexit to blow a hole in the EU budget apparently:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40433450

Is anyone surprised by that?

Well I'm shocked, I thought we contributed hardly anything to Europe as Brits are lazy racists.

Oh strawberry float off, that's not even close to a salient point. Everyone in the country knows we pay in a substantial amount.

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:If the EU was fair then the UK leaving wouldn't matter as the income would reduce by the rough same amount as their expenditure.

At least now we can feasibly trade with the EU without subsidising Poland, etc.

Why?

Why not?

Just wait until we go begging back to the EU in 20 or 30 years time and Polish people will be complaining about subsidising the UK and Brits coming over and taking all the Polish jobs.

Lagamorph wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:If the EU was fair then the UK leaving wouldn't matter as the income would reduce by the rough same amount as their expenditure.

At least now we can feasibly trade with the EU without subsidising Poland, etc.

Why?

Why not?

Just wait until we go begging back to the EU in 20 or 30 years time and Polish people will be complaining about subsidising the UK and Brits coming over and taking all the Polish jobs.

No chance, not with that trade deal with Papa New Guinea we've got to look forward to.

We benefit from the EU investment in other countries though. Think of how much business the UK does with Ireland (one of the largest markets for the UK), now think of how much the Irish economy and consumer demand has improved and increased since it has benefited from EU investment. Aside from the demand for UK goods and services, there is also the extra strength this lends to the EU as a whole internationally. It does not take a genius to realise that when one poorer EU country improves all the other EU countries benefit as well. EU development funds are an intelligent use of money and allow a relatively small contribution each individual member state to have a very significant impact compared with what each individual state alone could achieve within its own borders, in the same way we gain from pooling our influence and negotiating power.

Thanks to EU investment we have a lot of much faster developing countries to trade with completely freely and are collectively growing at a much faster rate, keeping the EU very relevant internationally even when growth in its most developed countries is very slow and threatens their individual bargaining position. These funds are very important if we want to keep Europe as the largest, wealthiest single market on the planet.

captain red dog wrote:

Moggy wrote:

captain red dog wrote:Brexit to blow a hole in the EU budget apparently:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40433450

Is anyone surprised by that?

Well I'm shocked, I thought we contributed hardly anything to Europe as Brits are lazy racists.

You're going to be stunned when you find out that the NHS isn't getting £350million a week.

Lucien wrote:

Banjo wrote:The general mentality mate. Do you honestly not want to help people that are not as fortunate as us? In a similar way, EU funding is what helps the poorest parts of the UK. You can bet Parliament won't want to give more money to Wales for instance, but through the EU it gets subsidies (which is what made the majority Pro-Brexit vote in Wales such a sting).

I do want to help people that are less fortunate, I just disagree with taxing you to help foreign governments. Foreign aid, maybe, but not for another developed country.

Do you think it's wrong that London taxpayers help fund projects in the north?

Everyone pays into the EU budget and the funds are then distributed as needed. A poorer nation state will obviously get more than a rich nation state as the whole idea is to raise countries up to a better level.

As Meep said, a good example of this is Ireland, a very poor country that has been raised up. In turn we now benefit enormously from trading with them.

Moaning that "our tax is paying for them!" is just like the selfish rich people that hate paying for the NHS ("I go private, why should I pay!") or schools ("I send my kids to private school, why am I paying for others?"). Modern society is based on the well off helping to fund the least well off, it's how we will all be better off in the future.

Doesn't seem the EU citizenship issue is going to be a quick done and move on...

Guardian wrote:EU children may have to apply to stay in UK after Brexit, leaked analysis says

European commission report on No 10’s offer concluded there was a ‘lack of clarity’, saying the offer could not be described as reciprocal

Theresa May’s proposal on citizens’ rights after Brexit does not offer EU citizens the certainty being sought by Brussels, and it would even force children to apply to stay in the UK, according to a leaked European commission analysis of the British government’s position.

A preliminary assessment of what Downing Street has called its ‘generous offer’ showed up a series of problems that would need to be negotiated away, the EU’s remaining 27 member states were told during a presentation by the commission this week.

There was a “general lack of clarity...many issues still to be clarified, no reciprocity, [a] lack of legal certainty, no lifelong protection against future changes of UK law [and] no directly enforceable vested rights and no European court of justice”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... lysis-says

It's not like there were regions in the UK who were pretty dependant on EU funding though right?

I could listen to pro Brexit views all day and they would never make sense to me.

Globalism is inevitable. To cut ties with an alliance is absolutely ridiculous.

DML wrote:I could listen to pro Brexit views all day and they would never make sense to me.

Globalism is inevitable. To cut ties with an alliance is absolutely ridiculous.

Yeah but we have to control our borders, and Poland should help itself!

Lucien wrote:I don't think it's wrong - Londoners and northerners share the same government.

My analogy was less to do with government and more about money being put into a pot and then being distributed according to the needs of each country.

Now I get you want to live under a EU government, so that London and the north would be akin to the UK and Poland, but I don't. If I wanted to be in the EU or have a single European government then I'd have no issue with money going where it's deemed fit to go.

Where have I argued for a EU government? The current system worked well, I wouldn't be outright opposed to a "superstate" but would need to know more about it to see if I supported it.

It only is from your perspective. Imagine a Marxist wanted to take most of your money to distribute it to Asia and you weren't for that. They could pull out the old "selfish" line.

What's a Marxist got to do with anything? Who is taking most of our money at the moment? Since when were we in a trading union with Asia?

If the EU started inviting in Asian countries, then some of our money would go there, the same as it does with Poland. That's not happened and there are no plans for it to ever happen.

You're further along the socialist line from me in one respect, is all.

It doesn't really have anything to do with socialism. Funds are paid into the EU from every member state and are then distributed amongst the states as per the needs of the states. We have done very well out of the whole thing, even if our headline figure looks higher than some other countries.

Think of it less like socialism and more like a big company buying a struggling company and then pumping in resources to make that struggling company succeed. In the end the whole organisation grows and becomes more profitable.

I get what you are saying about distributing funds Moggy, but we have blatant inequality like Greece which is utterly crippled and seemingly no end to the problems they are facing. Then there is the issue of EU expansion, adding nations into the pot without the approval of the 'tax payers'.

captain red dog wrote:I get what you are saying about distributing funds Moggy, but we have blatant inequality like Greece which is utterly crippled and seemingly no end to the problems they are facing. Then there is the issue of EU expansion, adding nations into the pot without the approval of the 'tax payers'.

Greece’s problem came from their own ineptitude. The EU was not to blame for the massive spending and lack of tax paying. The EU might have been able to do more to help, but they are not to blame for the entire collapse of the Greek economy. And despite the constant Leave arguments about Greece, Greece itself wants to stay in the EU.

Any nation that joins the EU has to be approved by the existing members and every single nation has a veto on new members. The “taxpayers” are not directly approving them, but then why would they? Their elected governments make the decision on whether to allow or veto a new member state, why would there be a referendum in every single member state whenever a new member state wanted to join?