The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW

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Victor Mildew
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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Victor Mildew » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:43 am

I'm enjoying this, I don't think it's amazing or anything and so far I preferred wandavision, but it's a top quality production no doubt.

New Cap going full homelander :nod:

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ITSMILNER
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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by ITSMILNER » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:52 am

I hope this eventually leads to a US Agent spin off series,

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Jenuall
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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Jenuall » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:08 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah his kill count is insane, dude's a strawberry floating killing machine.

No problem with his Nazi hits obviously, but he didn't really flinch when moving from killing full on obvious baddies to just taking out whoever he was pointed at in the subsequent movies!


There are two whole films about him flinching at being pointed in the way of ambiguous targets! :lol:

Yeah but it's just lip service, throughout all of his appearances he's smashing the strawberry float out of people who aren't necessarily evil!

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Rubix » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:17 pm

Does it get better? I watched the first two however, I wasn't sold

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Corazon de Leon

PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Corazon de Leon » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:45 pm

Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah his kill count is insane, dude's a strawberry floating killing machine.

No problem with his Nazi hits obviously, but he didn't really flinch when moving from killing full on obvious baddies to just taking out whoever he was pointed at in the subsequent movies!


There are two whole films about him flinching at being pointed in the way of ambiguous targets! :lol:

Yeah but it's just lip service, throughout all of his appearances he's smashing the strawberry float out of people who aren't necessarily evil!


Looking at his kill count on that website, he's killed 151 people/things. 54 of them were Nazis, 18 were aliens, 13 were terrorists holding people hostage on a boat, 27 were HYDRA agents(more Nazis!), 26 were robots, and five were Thanos aliens. I think they're all pretty nailed on bad dudes. Of the other 8, 7 of them were a UN squad who were ordered to kill Bucky on sight so you could probably argue self defence, then a random soldier in Avengers who I think was hypnotised by Loki, which was a bit gooseberry fool but again, self defence. So I'm not really with you there.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Jenuall » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:47 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah his kill count is insane, dude's a strawberry floating killing machine.

No problem with his Nazi hits obviously, but he didn't really flinch when moving from killing full on obvious baddies to just taking out whoever he was pointed at in the subsequent movies!


There are two whole films about him flinching at being pointed in the way of ambiguous targets! :lol:

Yeah but it's just lip service, throughout all of his appearances he's smashing the strawberry float out of people who aren't necessarily evil!


Looking at his kill count on that website, he's killed 151 people/things. 54 of them were Nazis, 18 were aliens, 13 were terrorists holding people hostage on a boat, 27 were HYDRA agents(more Nazis!), 26 were robots, and five were Thanos aliens. I think they're all pretty nailed on bad dudes. Of the other 8, 7 of them were a UN squad who were ordered to kill Bucky on sight so you could probably argue self defence, then a random soldier in Avengers who I think was hypnotised by Loki, which was a bit gooseberry fool but again, self defence. So I'm not really with you there.

He rips the strawberry float through SHIELD HQ and the Heli carriers in Winter Soldier, there's absolutely no way that all of the people who die as a result of that are HYDRA

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Lex-Man » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:49 pm

Rubix wrote:Does it get better? I watched the first two however, I wasn't sold


If you're talking about The Falcon and The Winter Soldier probably not. Episode 4 was probably the best one yet by ep three was the worst, although overall it's pretty consistent.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Alvin Flummux » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:38 pm

Qikz wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:If this wasn't on Disney, we would've seen Cap decapitate that poor man with the shield.

I hope Karli strawberry floats him up, but he's going to become US Agent so that's unlikely. Bucky & Falcon, on the other hand...


He wasn't trying to do that he was smashing him in the chest I believe.


I know, it just seemed tame for the level of anger he was exhibiting.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Corazon de Leon » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:00 pm

Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah his kill count is insane, dude's a strawberry floating killing machine.

No problem with his Nazi hits obviously, but he didn't really flinch when moving from killing full on obvious baddies to just taking out whoever he was pointed at in the subsequent movies!


There are two whole films about him flinching at being pointed in the way of ambiguous targets! :lol:

Yeah but it's just lip service, throughout all of his appearances he's smashing the strawberry float out of people who aren't necessarily evil!


Looking at his kill count on that website, he's killed 151 people/things. 54 of them were Nazis, 18 were aliens, 13 were terrorists holding people hostage on a boat, 27 were HYDRA agents(more Nazis!), 26 were robots, and five were Thanos aliens. I think they're all pretty nailed on bad dudes. Of the other 8, 7 of them were a UN squad who were ordered to kill Bucky on sight so you could probably argue self defence, then a random soldier in Avengers who I think was hypnotised by Loki, which was a bit gooseberry fool but again, self defence. So I'm not really with you there.

He rips the strawberry float through SHIELD HQ and the Heli carriers in Winter Soldier, there's absolutely no way that all of the people who die as a result of that are HYDRA


I'm just going off the link that was posted. But really, what's the alternative in that situation? The plan in Winter Soldier was to stop the evil helicarriers from lifting off. Once they got off the ground, it was either destroy them there and risk the lives of SHIELD agents or let them get further out and either carry out their mission/potentially drop them on top of Washington DC. I genuinely don't think there's much of an option there, and there's nothing in any of the films that Rogers-Cap has done on the scale of the blind, vicious vengeance/public execution that Harry Kane performed in the last ep. :dread:

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Zilnad » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:06 pm

To even suggest Steve Rogers's exploits came anywhere close to John Walker's brutal execution last night is absolute madness.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Tomous » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:06 pm

I thought at that point in The Winter Soldier the Hydra element of Shield had taken over things and so the people fighting Steve were traitors anyway?

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Corazon de Leon » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:08 pm

We've kind of moved off the original statement as well, which was that Cap was quite happy to go after whoever he was pointed at, evil or not. Even if there was collateral damage in the films that you think was avoidable, I'm not sure it could be made clearer throughout his story arc that he won't follow orders for the sake of it.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Jenuall » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:08 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah his kill count is insane, dude's a strawberry floating killing machine.

No problem with his Nazi hits obviously, but he didn't really flinch when moving from killing full on obvious baddies to just taking out whoever he was pointed at in the subsequent movies!


There are two whole films about him flinching at being pointed in the way of ambiguous targets! :lol:

Yeah but it's just lip service, throughout all of his appearances he's smashing the strawberry float out of people who aren't necessarily evil!


Looking at his kill count on that website, he's killed 151 people/things. 54 of them were Nazis, 18 were aliens, 13 were terrorists holding people hostage on a boat, 27 were HYDRA agents(more Nazis!), 26 were robots, and five were Thanos aliens. I think they're all pretty nailed on bad dudes. Of the other 8, 7 of them were a UN squad who were ordered to kill Bucky on sight so you could probably argue self defence, then a random soldier in Avengers who I think was hypnotised by Loki, which was a bit gooseberry fool but again, self defence. So I'm not really with you there.

He rips the strawberry float through SHIELD HQ and the Heli carriers in Winter Soldier, there's absolutely no way that all of the people who die as a result of that are HYDRA


I'm just going off the link that was posted. But really, what's the alternative in that situation? The plan in Winter Soldier was to stop the evil helicarriers from lifting off. Once they got off the ground, it was either destroy them there and risk the lives of SHIELD agents or let them get further out and either carry out their mission/potentially drop them on top of Washington DC. I genuinely don't think there's much of an option there, and there's nothing in any of the films that Rogers-Cap has done on the scale of the blind, vicious vengeance/public execution that Harry Kane performed in the last ep. :dread:

Steve was evil, just deal with it! ;)

But seriously, for a man with the propensity to get on his high horse as often as he did Rogers really seemed not to give a gooseberry fool about collateral damage and very much had a "throw my instant death shield at people's heads and ask questions later" kind of attitude!

RE: the last point on following orders - how many years was he running jobs for HYDRA SHIELD before he worked out he was being played? He probably killed a whole heap of people that were actually goodies just because Sundance told him to!

Obviously Harry Kane has clearly lost it as he was a bit of a psycho to start with whereas Steve was the little honest guy given a shot of power and so didn't become corrupted in the same way. But I still think they're trying to create a "New Cap has gone rogue but old Cap was whiter than white!" scenario which doesn't really do justice to the murkier elements of Steve's era with the shield.

Last edited by Jenuall on Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Corazon de Leon » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:09 pm

Tomous wrote:I thought at that point in The Winter Soldier the Hydra element of Shield had taken over things and so the people fighting Steve were traitors anyway?


It's made clear that everyone on the helicarriers is a HYDRA agent, but I don't think everyone in the Triskelion on the ground was, so it's quite feasible that some of them were caught in the blast.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Jenuall » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:10 pm

Zilnad wrote:To even suggest Steve Rogers's exploits came anywhere close to John Walker's brutal execution last night is absolute madness.

Who's suggesting this?

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Tomous » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:13 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Tomous wrote:I thought at that point in The Winter Soldier the Hydra element of Shield had taken over things and so the people fighting Steve were traitors anyway?


It's made clear that everyone on the helicarriers is a HYDRA agent, but I don't think everyone in the Triskelion on the ground was, so it's quite feasible that some of them were caught in the blast.



Yeah, fair enough potential for collateral damage there but like you say, I don't think he had a choice.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Jenuall » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:16 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Tomous wrote:I thought at that point in The Winter Soldier the Hydra element of Shield had taken over things and so the people fighting Steve were traitors anyway?


It's made clear that everyone on the helicarriers is a HYDRA agent, but I don't think everyone in the Triskelion on the ground was, so it's quite feasible that some of them were caught in the blast.

Is it? The throwaway "if they're shooting at you they're bad guys" line is a real weak justification for going free for all IMO.

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PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Dual » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:18 pm

If they don't die on screen they don't count.

Corazon de Leon

PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Corazon de Leon » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:21 pm

Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Yeah his kill count is insane, dude's a strawberry floating killing machine.

No problem with his Nazi hits obviously, but he didn't really flinch when moving from killing full on obvious baddies to just taking out whoever he was pointed at in the subsequent movies!


There are two whole films about him flinching at being pointed in the way of ambiguous targets! :lol:

Yeah but it's just lip service, throughout all of his appearances he's smashing the strawberry float out of people who aren't necessarily evil!


Looking at his kill count on that website, he's killed 151 people/things. 54 of them were Nazis, 18 were aliens, 13 were terrorists holding people hostage on a boat, 27 were HYDRA agents(more Nazis!), 26 were robots, and five were Thanos aliens. I think they're all pretty nailed on bad dudes. Of the other 8, 7 of them were a UN squad who were ordered to kill Bucky on sight so you could probably argue self defence, then a random soldier in Avengers who I think was hypnotised by Loki, which was a bit gooseberry fool but again, self defence. So I'm not really with you there.

He rips the strawberry float through SHIELD HQ and the Heli carriers in Winter Soldier, there's absolutely no way that all of the people who die as a result of that are HYDRA


I'm just going off the link that was posted. But really, what's the alternative in that situation? The plan in Winter Soldier was to stop the evil helicarriers from lifting off. Once they got off the ground, it was either destroy them there and risk the lives of SHIELD agents or let them get further out and either carry out their mission/potentially drop them on top of Washington DC. I genuinely don't think there's much of an option there, and there's nothing in any of the films that Rogers-Cap has done on the scale of the blind, vicious vengeance/public execution that Harry Kane performed in the last ep. :dread:

Steve was evil, just deal with it! ;)

But seriously, for a man with the propensity to get on his high horse as often as he did Rogers really seemed not to give a gooseberry fool about collateral damage and very much had a "throw my instant death shield at people's heads and ask questions later" kind of attitude!

RE: the last point on following orders - how many years was he running jobs for HYDRA SHIELD before he worked out he was being played? He probably killed a whole heap of people that were actually goodies just because Sundance told him to!

Obviously Harry Kane has clearly lost it as he was a bit of a psycho to start with whereas Steve was the little honest guy given a shot of power and so didn't become corrupted in the same way. But I still think they're trying to create a "New Cap has gone rogue but old Cap was whiter than white!" scenario which doesn't really do justice to the murkier elements of Steve's era with the shield.


In Winter Soldier he seems to mostly answer to Fury but regardless of what's gone on you can't really equate him being misled into working for the villains to, again, a public execution. The film is, I think, supposed to be the culmination of a year or two after Avengers he spent becoming more and more disillusioned by the way in which modern warfare operates.

Also, this is just a theory on my part, but to me Walker seems to be a textbook PTSD case. They've made a few references to "the worst day of my life," and some of the stuff he had to do as a soldier. Before he put on the mask in ep. 2 he didn't exactly seem excited by the role either. I don't think they're setting him up to be an outright villain, just someone who has had major problems and cracked under insane pressure. It might well lead into Falcon dropping back into the role he was playing at the start of Winter Soldier - grief counselling Walker through his experiences instead of (or after) a big fight between the two.

I quite enjoy talking about Cap and his story arc because it's weirdly close to some of the stuff I wrote my PhD about! There's a really interesting thing waiting to be written about the MCU, Cap, propaganda and structures of control by a smarter man than me.

Corazon de Leon

PostRe: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier | Disney+ | 1st Episode OUT NOW
by Corazon de Leon » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:22 pm

Jenuall wrote:
Corazon de Leon wrote:
Tomous wrote:I thought at that point in The Winter Soldier the Hydra element of Shield had taken over things and so the people fighting Steve were traitors anyway?


It's made clear that everyone on the helicarriers is a HYDRA agent, but I don't think everyone in the Triskelion on the ground was, so it's quite feasible that some of them were caught in the blast.

Is it? The throwaway "if they're shooting at you they're bad guys" line is a real weak justification for going free for all IMO.


I haven't watched it in a while, but I think either Fury or Pierce actually explicitly says that they're all HYDRA, something about "all the men on the ships are ours/theirs." Might be wrong about that though!


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