The Hannivalia Crisis 1891 [AYAW] - The End (page 137)

Mommy wrote:

Hypes wrote:

Mommy wrote:

Hypes wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I did wonder why other specials didn't contact Mommy so that our network could have built up. Until I think the day before the end, when Rula was brought in, it was literally just Mommy and me the entire way through.

Did they not? I know I did.
But then again Mommy seemed to play an utterly bizarre game as usual so I can see why people didn't trust him

Yes, You, VlaSoul, SuperChris and Darkrula all contacted me but again I didn't tell them who OB was (other than OB coming out to Darkrula). I'd been BCCing OB in the PMs so maybe he thought I'd told Darkrula.
By announcing my role, there is a reason for the seer to contact me, by getting a couple of kills, there is more chance of specials coming forward.
By being nuts, the Conformists accept the distraction helps them. I thought I'd been much more sedate this time.

Honestly, I think I'd have completely trusted you had Moggy not thought up that bizzare extra win condition

Moggy's PM after I'd asked him to confirm the next Conformist in the thread...

Moggy wrote:I'm stunned it took you so long.

I'm in a bind here as you've sort of named me as a conformist in the thread. I don't know if that strawberry floats my win condition.

Let me check something with the Duke and I'll get back to you. If my win condition hasn't been voided, I might be more help than you could imagine.

So he started the win condition thing in a PM.
No chance were we falling for that, but he had a few people on board.

I knew I was dead, but decided to spread a little doubt and cause a bit of chaos before I left.

The other thing about the "why didn't you go for Mommy and CK" is that it would have taken a power to take out CK. We debated it, as we did want to delay PMs as long as possible, but then he switched the Acts suddenly anyway.

The IPA didn't really change the fact that six of us in a narrow pool would show up as bad. Only one of us could claim the Occultist one time )as Skarjo did, then Roon came forward).

There were also the other roles at play too - the Roleblocker and the Military Vet primarily. CK would have had speaker protection the first night. We felt the protection and blocking roles would have been looking at them.

It's easy to say in hindsight, but we were operating on the same small list of unknowns as you, and we used deduction to narrow it down further.

We long thought Albear and Vermi could be the Seer as they left they meekly fate to a coin toss when they were nominated for the chop. We initially discounted Falsey and VlaSoul as Mommy outed them as Seered in the thread. We made woolier guesses like "who would contact Mommy first instead of Herbi" and thought it didn't sound like PMM. We did go back on these assumptions as we got more desperate but at first, we were relatively sure the Seer was in our short list (and you were, but like I said, you were always the 2nd or 3rd choice, and that Spymaster gaff threw us off a bit).

In hindsight it's easy to say "you should have picked the Specials" as you know our kills were duff. But we were circling around you the entire time, and had we went with you and got you one night, the game would have changed and the tactic proved right.

I don't think it was the tactic that was wrong - we had to get that Seer as they were trying to find six of us in an equally small pool.

I think what was wrong were our picks. I think out early picks were good - Tomous, Qikz, Jenuall all were good players, we guessed they had something to hide and hit specials too.

I think we maybe got a bit guilty of over-thinking. I've mentioned the Preezy killing before and I think that was a wrong step, but he was one of the fee.plauers we genuinely had nothing on. PMM in hindsight wasn't the Seer due to that early game activity, but he'd been a bit suspicious (and much more active) as the game progresses. I think if we'd been a bit more detached and level-headed we might have got you a few days ago. But you played well, and we had a small target to hit (just the 1 player) so I don't think our logic and deduction were *that* far off - we were on the right track and had the right list.

I think going for Specials would have been a more viable tactic without the PMs. I felt that PMs being granted (Herbi switching, which would have been absolutely infuriating if I was a villager, was a good thing for you), having two specials out already and about 10 more out there, was just something we could never keep on top of.

It was also good luck/judgement on your part that you got a wolf as soon as the Mommy/PM thing got set up. Had you not, then more people might have been suspicious of him. I think in the early days people weren't that trusting of Mommy and, especially, CK, so it was annoying you got concrete results so quickly as well.

And Moggy's hidden role.day was such a clusterfuck.

I was really busy that day, kept popping into the thread and immediately nope'd back out of there.

The Turncoat thing might have worked with a bit of tweaking over the role and win condition.

That PM though, with everyone being adamant that Clarkman wrote it.

Clarkman was really the only one of us who got sustained public suspicion.

It was a great moment when Clarkman quoted Moggy's fake PM to refute it and managed to post in exactly the same style as it further increasing suspicions.

Think if he'd got lynched earlier off the back of that then the village might actually have turned on Mommy.

Nun wrote:It was a great moment when Clarkman quoted Moggy's fake PM to refute it and managed to post in exactly the same style as it further increasing suspicions.

Think if he'd got lynched earlier off the back of that then the village might actually have turned on Mommy.

Was it you that said "Did he do that on purpose?". Very funny moment.

Tomous wrote:

Zilnad wrote:Big thanks to OR for running the game. I really enjoyed what I played, it was just unfortunate that my forum time has been minimal recently.

Yeah yeah, whatever alpha

I have to say, had I been the Alpha, I certainly wouldn't have hidden quite so obviously.

Another low-key favourite moment of mine was when Zilly completely blanked my Alpha joke in the work thread which made him look even more guilty!

Parksey wrote:The other thing about the "why didn't you go for Mommy and CK" is that it would have taken a power to take out CK. We debated it, as we did want to delay PMs as long as possible, but then he switched the Acts suddenly anyway.

The IPA didn't really change the fact that six of us in a narrow pool would show up as bad. Only one of us could claim the Occultist one time )as Skarjo did, then Roon came forward).

There were also the other roles at play too - the Roleblocker and the Military Vet primarily. CK would have had speaker protection the first night. We felt the protection and blocking roles would have been looking at them.

It's easy to say in hindsight, but we were operating on the same small list of unknowns as you, and we used deduction to narrow it down further.

We long thought Albear and Vermi could be the Seer as they left they meekly fate to a coin toss when they were nominated for the chop. We initially discounted Falsey and VlaSoul as Mommy outed them as Seered in the thread. We made woolier guesses like "who would contact Mommy first instead of Herbi" and thought it didn't sound like PMM. We did go back on these assumptions as we got more desperate but at first, we were relatively sure the Seer was in our short list (and you were, but like I said, you were always the 2nd or 3rd choice, and that Spymaster gaff threw us off a bit).

In hindsight it's easy to say "you should have picked the Specials" as you know our kills were duff. But we were circling around you the entire time, and had we went with you and got you one night, the game would have changed and the tactic proved right.

I don't think it was the tactic that was wrong - we had to get that Seer as they were trying to find six of us in an equally small pool.

I think what was wrong were our picks. I think out early picks were good - Tomous, Qikz, Jenuall all were good players, we guessed they had something to hide and hit specials too.

I think we maybe got a bit guilty of over-thinking. I've mentioned the Preezy killing before and I think that was a wrong step, but he was one of the fee.plauers we genuinely had nothing on. PMM in hindsight wasn't the Seer due to that early game activity, but he'd been a bit suspicious (and much more active) as the game progresses. I think if we'd been a bit more detached and level-headed we might have got you a few days ago. But you played well, and we had a small target to hit (just the 1 player) so I don't think our logic and deduction were *that* far off - we were on the right track and had the right list.

I think going for Specials would have been a more viable tactic without the PMs. I felt that PMs being granted (Herbi switching, which would have been absolutely infuriating if I was a villager, was a good thing for you), having two specials out already and about 10 more out there, was just something we could never keep on top of.

It was also good luck/judgement on your part that you got a wolf as soon as the Mommy/PM thing got set up. Had you not, then more people might have been suspicious of him. I think in the early days people weren't that trusting of Mommy and, especially, CK, so it was annoying you got concrete results so quickly as well.

It is also easy to say that if you'd killed me, your strategy would have been justified, but I'm telling you that you could have almost entirely removed luck from the equation, drastically destabilised my operation and delayed the first Conformist kill by at least three days. I'm surprised with all this in mind you seem totally convinced that the option you chose was without doubt the right one. Without an alternate universe simulator we'll never know for sure, and I'm not claiming to be definitely right, but if it were me I'd have chopped the mouthpiece straight away every time.

You mention it was good luck/judgment hitting a Conformist by the time PMs were up and running. I actually hit the second one at the same time, but my point would be that by then I'd had four attempts, putting me firmly in scope of having hit one even if I'd selected by rolling dice, so I don't think you can consider that as an unlucky blow to your strategy, in fact very much the opposite.

As I've said I think if anything our mistake was not hitting the role claimers as they popped up in thread on Day 2 and 3. CK ignoring the majority and going for the PM act was a real turning point, although we had discussed the possibility in our chat I don't think we'd really planned for it happening and were happy in thinking the IPA was getting the priority treatment.

Mommy wrote:

Nun wrote:It was a great moment when Clarkman quoted Moggy's fake PM to refute it and managed to post in exactly the same style as it further increasing suspicions.

Think if he'd got lynched earlier off the back of that then the village might actually have turned on Mommy.

Was it you that said "Did he do that on purpose?". Very funny moment.

Mommy I know you kind of hinted before at you were playing up your craziness in the game, but did you completely forget that Nun died on like night 2? It definitely wasn't him that said that.

The big mistake was not killing Mommy.

Not for any game related reasons, just because it's Mommy.

Qikz wrote:

Mommy wrote:

Nun wrote:It was a great moment when Clarkman quoted Moggy's fake PM to refute it and managed to post in exactly the same style as it further increasing suspicions.

Think if he'd got lynched earlier off the back of that then the village might actually have turned on Mommy.

Was it you that said "Did he do that on purpose?". Very funny moment.

Mommy I know you kind of hinted before at you were playing up your craziness in the game, but did you completely forget that Nun died on like night 2? It definitely wasn't him that said that.

I've got to be honest, I struggled like strawberry float with names of late. OB did the list of players and there roles and sent it to me and I said "Where are you on that list?". He said "You're joking, right?"

Ummm, yeah m8

Also, I didn't know ORKN was The Duke until he posted in the endgame. I saw him post in some gaming topics and thought it was weird he wasn't playing...
Also, Hypes being Hyperion, CK being Herbi and others.
There is a medical reason for it but its boring

Moggy wrote:The big mistake was not killing Mommy.

Not for any game related reasons, just because it's Mommy.

I'm surprised the role claims were treated as correct before any verification. I was seriously strawberry floating suspicious of Mommy and Moggy that night they kept getting stuff wrong. I think not disputing role claims more and generally not throwing a bit more caution to the wind was another Conformist slip.

It wasn't until Hypes switched the vote that we really had another concrete MP and by that stage Mommy and Ob were in control.

Moggy making up the switch sides stuff the night he did kept the doubts in my mind about Mommy longer than they should have been really. The night I was MOIA it wasn't out of the realmsof possibility that I would lynch him to remove all doubt

I think the issue with role claiming by a conformist is it just gives them up straight away. It's one of two people do even if the village got the wrong one it's confirmed the other is a conformist. Had there been multiple people with the same role it would be easier to falsely role claim

Drumstick wrote::fp:

Was this in reply to that Pokemon match?

Zilnad wrote:

Tomous wrote:

Zilnad wrote:Big thanks to OR for running the game. I really enjoyed what I played, it was just unfortunate that my forum time has been minimal recently.

Yeah yeah, whatever alpha

I have to say, had I been the Alpha, I certainly wouldn't have hidden quite so obviously.

I was sure it was you, Ob Bob had convinced me to the point that I had my Neville longbottom snake kill gif ready and waiting!

Herdanos wrote:

Drumstick wrote::fp:

Was this in reply to that Pokemon match?

Yes. An absolute travesty.

That pokemon match was brilliant Karl picking a preset team not realising it was a gimmick setup and then both of us (I think it's fair to say neither competitive pokemon players!) awkwardly discovering said gimmick through a battle that lasted far longer than a pokemon battle should!

Now for some final comments on this game:

Alternate Endings

They weren't written out, but I had 5 different endings lined up depending on how the game went:

1) Parliament wins with a majority of its roles still alive

This is the one that happened and was the "good" ending. The Duke gradually loses power to parliament and eventually Hannivalia becomes a republic.

2) Parliament wins with a minority of its roles still alive

In this situation while the Duke's conspiracy with the conformists failed he would have played the chaos wrought as a sign that parliament is unfit for power. Hannivalia would have faced an uncertain civil war between parliament and the Duke.

3) Conformists win with less than half alive

The conspiracy succeeds but the Duke then turns on the conformist-controlled parliament, wanting power for himself alone. Hannivalia would have faced another uncertain civil war, this time between the Church and the Duke.

4) Conformists win with more than half alive

The conspiracy succeeds and the Duke becomes a puppet of the Church who rule Hannivalia through the conformist-controlled parliament.

5) The Foreign Agent wins

This was always an outside chance, but had the Foreign Agent won, regardless of which way the game went otherwise Hannivalia would have been invaded by the unknown nation, with either parliament or the Duke and Church forming a government in exile.

Shout Outs

These far from cover all the entertaining plays in the game, but I wanted to give some mention of my highlights:

Parksey risked detection on the very first night by making the kill himself - perhaps because I hadn't made it clear a specific person had to be chosen! - but then blended in perfectly as the alpha from that point on. The different time zone excuse maybe worked out in his favour!

Moggy deserves credit for being stubbornly committed to causing chaos even when it was clear his number was up, turning what could have been a very boring day where the lynch was decided first thing in the morning into another entertaining episode. Added bonus hilarity of a complete invention backfiring as Clarkman got accused of being a collaborator!

Speaking of, Clarkman managed to do the almost impossible and stop himself being lynched on day 9 despite looking the favourite throughout the day. It sounded like he was sending many PMs in the background as a desperate attempt to achieve that - and it worked! Well, until the very next day at least when he got lynched anyway

Ob Bob has to be the MVP - by night 7 he had a better than 50% hit rate on seering conformists and the seer circle he setup with Mommy carried the game for the MPs. His reveal as the seer apparently took almost everyone by surprise, which shows how well Ob Bob played it!

Kezzer went out early but not before correctly identifying Moggy as a wrong 'un - unfortunately no one seemed to listen, even after he was proven to be on the towns side in death!

DarkRula and SuperChris both played good games as their roles. Rula identified Ob Bob as a role on his first night and tracked a conformist on two nights (just never the one making the kill), and funnily enough tracked False on the one night False didn't submit a night action (while the Foreign Agent was still alive). Chris was keen to learn his role in asking questions on how it worked and came very close to roleblocking the conformists without ever blocking a town aligned role - he blocked 3 different conformists and the last, Clarkman, he blocked twice. Also a fun note - on nights 6, 9 and 10 Rula and Chris targeted the same players! (Albear, Clarkman and Zilnad).

Captain Kinopio deserves mention for surviving the game as the Speaker, with only Drumstick holding office before him. I was interested in seeing how dangerous the Speaker position would be, and it ended up less so than I imagined!

Almost Great Moments

These moments didn't happen, but came very close to it, and would have been brilliant:

On day 5 Kinopio didn't submit an act so it went to RNG - this could have selected the Church Conformity Act, which would have certainly made some ripples!

On day 8 the vote to lynch was replaced with the vote for the MIA, but as the 7pm deadline approached no votes had actually been cast correctly! The conformists noticed this and sawyerpip was I think ready to jump in and steal the election at the last moment - if it wasn't for DarkRula saving the day for the town by reminding the thread the vote was needed!

Setup Balance

I intended to run this setup as a one-off and likely won't run a similar game again, but if I were to go back and tweak the balance, what would I change?

I think there was actually one too few conformists and 8 would have been a better balanced ratio.

I was disappointed that the Foreign Agent only made one kill and both that and the Spymaster role could have used more work. Perhaps the Foreign Agent should never have been at risk of losing a kill attempt from protection for example.

State Secrets Act should have made the game semi-open rather than fully open, with a set of possible roles revealed but not exactly which are in play or how many (certainly I would suggest this in any future use of the setup, but I did like the purity of the choice between close and open in the context of this game offering that meta discussion).

Opening up PMs should have more of a downside or benefit to the mafia. Again I think it was good in the context of a meta discussion, but for actual balance perhaps the seer should no longer be able to investigate once the act is passed allowing PMs. It's only in being able to secretly get their results out to the thread that the seer becomes overpowered!

Rather than a single act being proposed and voted for or against, while that matched the theme better I think a better game would be achieved by having the speaker propose two acts and everyone voting between the vote on which to pass, without any chance to revoke or not pass an act.

Also, a mention for the game's one and only Megaton.