The Last of Us Part II - Out now

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Fade
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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Fade » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:04 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
Chocolate-Milk wrote:They deliberately frame it as being your fault.[/is] Ellie does a bad thing, and they go "Look what you've done. That's awful. How could you."


I never thought this at all. It's completely "look at what Ellie has done". Player choice doesn't enter into it because it's not even an aspect of the game's narrative.

The trick this game does so well is that for a lot of what Ellie is doing, you as a player don't think it's awful. Joel's death makes you want to see Ellie get revenge just as she wants it, but that desire gets confounded and unravelled. That torture moment with Nora is absolutely one where the player is thinking "I don't want to do this", it's a key moment in the player questioning what they want to happen. The subsequent effect on Ellie made me sad for her, not guilty for "making" her do it - that's not how it's set up. I never felt like the game was blaming me for what Ellie did, how even could it? I feel guilty for having wanted her to go down this route, but of course I'm not responsible. In what way do you feel like the game was telling you you were?


Am I right in saying you've not finished it then? Wary of accidental spoilers!

Neil Druckman has actually said on a podcast that the game isn't there to point fingers or judge you. It's just about Ellie learning about the consequences of her actions and growing as a character.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Chocolate-Milk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:06 pm

He also said it wasn't supposed to be fun, so...

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Fade » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:10 pm

It's almost as if fun is subjective

I personally did not find the killing very fun within the context of the game. There were points where I really tried not to kill people because of aspects of the story. And others where I went on a rampage because it had made me angry.

But the death was always very melancholy to me, definitely has a very different feel to most games.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Saint of Killers » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:19 pm

So I've now killed a few dogs. I only felt bad once. And that was more for the effect of what I'd done had on the dog than anything else. (The guard hadn't let the dog off the leash, so I quickly and quietly, at range, dispatched the guard. The sounds the dog made broke my heart. So I obviously had to kill it for making me feel bad.)

| (•_•)| S: This is the best date I've been on since my last date. PB: This is not a date.
S: Neither was the last one. It was a robbery. M: Really? S: Yeah. She stole my heart. And my crown. (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Parksey » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:23 pm

Saint of Killers wrote:So I've now killed a few dogs. I only felt bad once. And that was more for the effect of what I'd done had on the dog than anything else. (The guard hadn't let the dog off the leash, so I quickly and quietly, at range, dispatched the guard. The sounds the dog made broke my heart. So I obviously had to kill it for making me feel bad.)


I've just got up to the bit with dogs. The developers claiming that we were going to feel bad for killing them was a bit naive I feel, given that they are annoying as Hell tracking you and making you move a lot faster in and out of cover. I was glad to take a shotgun to them.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Captain Kinopio » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:26 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:I think there is a good amount of gameplay variety in encounters, and although it's more enemy-driven than environment-driven the environments do impact the gameplay also. Maybe you suffered from sticking to a stealth-takedown approach instead of actively mixing things up more?

The game is split between two differentiated characters each with a constantly evolving inventory opening new possibilities. Gameplay varies between combat encounters (with the option of stealth), exploration, traversal and puzzle solving. Broadly there are three classes of enemy in infected, wolves and seraphites. The infected are the most obviously differentiated with the different types - shamblers, stalkers and bloaters/the rat king bosses especially. Dogs have a big impact on the wolf encounters they are involved in if taking a stealth approach. The seraphites were most noticeably different to me for their use of bows and the brutes in melee. The encounters that combined the enemy types were some of my favourites, either in setting infected against humans (which is possible in a few different variations) or when the seraphites are fighting wolves with you caught between them.

The other biggest variations in gameplay for me would be the on-rails sections, the chase sections, the mini open-world section, the boat section, the Tommy sniper section, the use of water and swimming in certain encounters, the flashbacks and the boss fights. Basically I can think of loads of distinct sections in gameplay!

From a purely environment impacting gameplay perspective, which I think is what you're getting at, the encounters using water and the section with trip mines would probably be the best examples? You're right though that the environments aren't particularly interactive themselves in combat, it's the encounters laid on top of them where the gameplay is contained (other than all the glass windows you can smash as distractions). Environmental interaction is used more with the physics led puzzle solving, which I thought was really impressive for how intuitive they were to solve, even if the broad types of puzzle were fairly limited. Things like throwing ropes around to climb up or swing off, breaking open windows, or pushing around garbage bins as platforms.


I definitely played more aggressively as Abby but you’re really not encouraged to do so and there’s only limited fun from pushing past that and role playing the character yourself. The dogs are definitely the best addition to combat in that they really do force you to think and play differently. The new infected types while welcome I didn’t feel were utilised as well as they could have been and often led to rather muddled encounters. Stalkers are the best of them but end up a bit to similar to runners to change things up much.

For what was a 30+ hour game it could 100% have used way more environmental puzzles. The first few hours has a good balance but after this they’re basically non existent.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Saint of Killers » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:27 pm

Parksey wrote:
Saint of Killers wrote:So I've now killed a few dogs. I only felt bad once. And that was more for the effect of what I'd done had on the dog than anything else. (The guard hadn't let the dog off the leash, so I quickly and quietly, at range, dispatched the guard. The sounds the dog made broke my heart. So I obviously had to kill it for making me feel bad.)


I've just got up to the bit with dogs. The developers claiming that we were going to feel bad for killing them was a bit naive I feel, given that they are annoying as Hell tracking you and making you move a lot faster in and out of cover. I was glad to take a shotgun to them.


This! But I actually enjoyed the change of pace. (Especially as we can put them off the trail in the dumbest way :lol:)

| (•_•)| S: This is the best date I've been on since my last date. PB: This is not a date.
S: Neither was the last one. It was a robbery. M: Really? S: Yeah. She stole my heart. And my crown. (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Saint of Killers » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:31 pm

Wait a minute! If there are dogs in this... infected puppers?! I want to see infected puppers! I'm imagining something out of The Thing.

| (•_•)| S: This is the best date I've been on since my last date. PB: This is not a date.
S: Neither was the last one. It was a robbery. M: Really? S: Yeah. She stole my heart. And my crown. (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by OrangeRKN » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:44 pm

Chocolate-Milk wrote:He also said it wasn't supposed to be fun, so...


Entertainment and fun aren't synonyms. I think lots of the game isn't fun

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Fade » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:44 pm

Captain Kinopio wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:I think there is a good amount of gameplay variety in encounters, and although it's more enemy-driven than environment-driven the environments do impact the gameplay also. Maybe you suffered from sticking to a stealth-takedown approach instead of actively mixing things up more?

The game is split between two differentiated characters each with a constantly evolving inventory opening new possibilities. Gameplay varies between combat encounters (with the option of stealth), exploration, traversal and puzzle solving. Broadly there are three classes of enemy in infected, wolves and seraphites. The infected are the most obviously differentiated with the different types - shamblers, stalkers and bloaters/the rat king bosses especially. Dogs have a big impact on the wolf encounters they are involved in if taking a stealth approach. The seraphites were most noticeably different to me for their use of bows and the brutes in melee. The encounters that combined the enemy types were some of my favourites, either in setting infected against humans (which is possible in a few different variations) or when the seraphites are fighting wolves with you caught between them.

The other biggest variations in gameplay for me would be the on-rails sections, the chase sections, the mini open-world section, the boat section, the Tommy sniper section, the use of water and swimming in certain encounters, the flashbacks and the boss fights. Basically I can think of loads of distinct sections in gameplay!

From a purely environment impacting gameplay perspective, which I think is what you're getting at, the encounters using water and the section with trip mines would probably be the best examples? You're right though that the environments aren't particularly interactive themselves in combat, it's the encounters laid on top of them where the gameplay is contained (other than all the glass windows you can smash as distractions). Environmental interaction is used more with the physics led puzzle solving, which I thought was really impressive for how intuitive they were to solve, even if the broad types of puzzle were fairly limited. Things like throwing ropes around to climb up or swing off, breaking open windows, or pushing around garbage bins as platforms.


I definitely played more aggressively as Abby but you’re really not encouraged to do so and there’s only limited fun from pushing past that and role playing the character yourself. The dogs are definitely the best addition to combat in that they really do force you to think and play differently. The new infected types while welcome I didn’t feel were utilised as well as they could have been and often led to rather muddled encounters. Stalkers are the best of them but end up a bit to similar to runners to change things up much.

For what was a 30+ hour game it could 100% have used way more environmental puzzles. The first few hours has a good balance but after this they’re basically non existent.

If anything Abby gives you the opportunity to play more non lethally as she just chokes people out instead of slitting their throats as well as knocking people out when she doesn't have a weapon.

Abby is definitely more suited to straight up confrontations though while Ellie is better at stealth. The upgrade you get that lets you do two strikes in a row is awesome.

Last edited by Fade on Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by OrangeRKN » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:45 pm

I don't think those chokes are non-lethal... :P

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Denster » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:47 pm

I had no problem repeatedly hitting Nora. She'd just gloated about killing Joel moments before. Killing Mel then realizing she is pregnant had much more of an impact on me. As did realising who Abby's dad was. Killing the dogs bothered me but even more so when you play as Abby and you see Alice and Bear in their pen and know you've killed them.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Chocolate-Milk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:48 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
Chocolate-Milk wrote:He also said it wasn't supposed to be fun, so...


Entertainment and fun aren't synonyms. I think lots of the game isn't fun

That's a fair point, there's definitely a distinction. Horses for courses, I suppose. I'm certainly having fun with the combat, anyway.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Fade » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:49 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:I don't think those chokes are non-lethal... :P

They are, maybe it changes at a certain point but against clickers she snaps their necks, where as against humans (at least in the latter half of the story) she doesn't.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Captain Kinopio » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:57 pm

Fade wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:I don't think those chokes are non-lethal... :P

They are, maybe it changes at a certain point but against clickers she snaps their necks, where as against humans (at least in the latter half of the story) she doesn't.


I think this is your reading of it rather than fact.

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by Fade » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:02 pm

Captain Kinopio wrote:
Fade wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:I don't think those chokes are non-lethal... :P

They are, maybe it changes at a certain point but against clickers she snaps their necks, where as against humans (at least in the latter half of the story) she doesn't.


I think this is your reading of it rather than fact.

Sure, but why would they give her two distinct animations depending on the enemy where as Ellie just slits everyone's throat?

I mean it makes sense that a trained soldier wouldn't just brutally murder everyone just because they can. Makes even more sense when you consider that she spares Tommy and Ellie at the start of the game

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by OrangeRKN » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:05 pm

I think the infected neck pop is because choking out a zombie is potentially a confusing way of killing them (do the infected even need to breathe? I don't actually know, it's not very clear considering they can grow into walls and stay locked up hibernating for years).

If you choke a human out and their friends find the body, they will say they are dead... so that's all the proof I need ;)

Chocolate-Milk wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:
Chocolate-Milk wrote:He also said it wasn't supposed to be fun, so...


Entertainment and fun aren't synonyms. I think lots of the game isn't fun

That's a fair point, there's definitely a distinction. Horses for courses, I suppose. I'm certainly having fun with the combat, anyway.


For sure the combat is (mostly) fun!

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by DaveDS » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:26 pm

Parksey wrote:
Saint of Killers wrote:So I've now killed a few dogs. I only felt bad once. And that was more for the effect of what I'd done had on the dog than anything else. (The guard hadn't let the dog off the leash, so I quickly and quietly, at range, dispatched the guard. The sounds the dog made broke my heart. So I obviously had to kill it for making me feel bad.)


I've just got up to the bit with dogs. The developers claiming that we were going to feel bad for killing them was a bit naive I feel, given that they are annoying as Hell tracking you and making you move a lot faster in and out of cover. I was glad to take a shotgun to them.


Just wait... :cry:

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by OrangeRKN » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:42 pm

I'll tell you what's wrong with the game - you can kill dogs, but despite shooting it I couldn't kill a stray cat :x

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PostRe: The Last of Us Part II - Out now
by DaveDS » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:46 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:I'll tell you what's wrong with the game - you can kill dogs, but despite shooting it I couldn't kill a stray cat :x


Cats are fast. You’d need an RPG.


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