The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheats!

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by jiggles » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:20 pm

Mafro wrote:
jiggles wrote:Fade, I think that’s being dismissive.

The fact that *none* of the black characters who have lines survive any of the THREE titles is not offset by “everyone dies” (they don’t) or “people of all races die”.

And neither does having fought the Trunchbull earlier excuse the climactic encounter of the war on the island being “ok, that, but now it’s a black guy” who must be honestly about 8 feet tall and you pass it by brutally and slowly slicing up his face with a sickle in vivid detail vs when you fought the white one who you punched until you crushed her head with her hammer, off-screen, in a fraction of the time.

The encounter with the king of the brutes (iirc, the only black brute in the game, naturally) isn’t just you winning by overpowering him like the other brutes, it’s a drawn out mutilation.


And I say this as someone who didn’t cop to this as I was playing through it. I had it pointed out after the fact and even though I think the game is outstanding, it’s still strawberry floated up. This isn’t happenstance, the world and characters are all invented to be as they are. Even if it’s not done with malicious intent, but rather a subconscious prejudice they aren’t aware they’re expressing by just designing the characters and scripting the events “like they pictured in their head”, the fact that they’re not being questioned on this trend internally is cause for concern. Clearly Naughty Dog need more black voices in their ear, because as the titles roll out, the characterisation of this situation evolves from coincidence to trend to behaviour.

I'm still amazed Nadine survived Uncharted 4.


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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by OrangeRKN » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:40 pm

In Jak II they only fake killed off the only black character. He goes on to become king of the warlike criminal desert people.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:55 pm

Just found a trading card with a superhero self-insert of Neil Druckmann.

The man oversees one of the most toxic, harmful workspaces in AAA gaming, yet one poor strawberry floater had to draw him as a superhero, another had to write his superhero backstory, and a few more had to create and render both into an in-game asset.

Uuuuurgh.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tomous » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:09 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:Just found a trading card with a superhero self-insert of Neil Druckmann.

The man oversees one of the most toxic, harmful workspaces in AAA gaming, yet one poor strawberry floater had to draw him as a superhero, another had to write his superhero backstory, and a few more had to create and render both into an in-game asset.

Uuuuurgh.



strawberry float :lol:

Who does he think he is? Hideo Kojima?


Edit: Hang on, reading up on it he's a villian and his backstory is:

Once a well-respected researcher, Doctor Uckmann’s questionable experiments in the realm of pushing human limits saw him ostracized from the scientific community. Even the morally-compromised Laurent Foucault of SPARK Laboratories found his work dubious. Undeterred, Uckmann continued his work in secret, creating super-AI to do his bidding and protect his research while he and The New Dogs stage high-tech heists to fund it all. Constantly moving his lab location so no one can find him, he longs for the day where his subjects will be treated as equals.


Is this not a dig at him for ND's crunch culture?

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:12 pm

Sounds more like a backhanded pisstake to me

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tomous » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:13 pm

"questionable experiments in the realm of pushing human limits" doesn't sound very subtle to me

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by OrangeRKN » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:36 pm

A strange fyi, don't search for "Neil Druckmann self-insert"... the card is actually a self-insert, but there was a whole thing with another character that people were claiming was a self-insert (even though they clearly aren't) and if you search it you're likely to hit spoilers.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Captain Kinopio » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:41 pm

The card literally says he's a villain. :lol:

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:00 pm

Captain Kinopio wrote:The card literally says he's a villain. :lol:


Hands up, I did miss that. Like I say though, this is a guy legendarily unable to take the mildest criticism. I can't see it as anything other than a snide slap at the reporting about work conditions.

OrangeRKN wrote:A strange fyi, don't search for "Neil Druckmann self-insert"... the card is actually a self-insert, but there was a whole thing with another character that people were claiming was a self-insert (even though they clearly aren't) and if you search it you're likely to hit spoilers.


Yeah, I did see something about that controversy. Nothing substantial but I knew thoughts were had.

Met the Wolves. Holy moly if you start using explosives things get super messy super fast. Wow.

Black person update: 1 hostile NPC, maybe. He was in chunks.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by jiggles » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:58 pm

Be sure to try find the music shop in the open area. I think you’ll really like what happens

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:20 pm

jiggles wrote:Be sure to try find the music shop in the open area. I think you’ll really like what happens


Yeah, found it and it was indeed great.

Made it to the theatre. Few more thoughts:

- One of Dina's idle animations way back in Downtown was her cupping her belly. Nice foreshadowing.
- The human Vs infected Vs player combat encounters are very fun
- The build up of the Scars is good so far. If only they hadn't used them in the trailers, I might be intrigued!
- There's also no innovation here. It's almost exactly the same gameplay loop as TLOU1, just better looking and with a different story.
- The rhythm of the game is becoming very apparent, as in I know when to expect a shock, when to expect a slow period and when to expect a combat encounter. Once you've got a feel for it, the whole thing feels a bit like a theme park ride.
- This is more of a me thing than a problem with this game, but I dislike the game-game-game-movie cutscene-game-game movie cutscene pattern that's rapidly becoming the Sony first party house style. Considering there's almost no similar constraints in videogames, simply aping films and TV shows is a bit...reductive.

But I'm still enjoying it, much to my own chagrin

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Denster » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:43 am

Im enjoying watching you enjoy it. Try not to overthink it and second guess everything and simply immerse yourself.

Youve made no secret of your reservations about this title. Try and forget them for now and just play the game. Plenty of us will disuss the minutiae with you afterwards.

Get the kite, Beavis.
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Denster » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:47 am

OrangeRKN wrote:This was an enjoyable prediction to read

Massively.

Ive gone from dreading Taf's opinion on it to being hugely intrigued.

Its a genuine pleasure to see others experience it for the first time.

Get the kite, Beavis.
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by OrangeRKN » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:14 am

Tafdolphin wrote:- There's also no innovation here. It's almost exactly the same gameplay loop as TLOU1, just better looking and with a different story.


Interested in what you would consider the best approach for a sequel in balancing innovating with new ideas and iterating on the gameplay style already established by the first game. I think TLOU2 does a good job in iterating on the gameplay with:

- The quasi open world downtown area you've already been through
- Encounters involving both survivors and infected (only touched on with the first game's DLC)
- New enemy types (mostly yet to appear) and new weapons
- Shiv locked loot rooms removed; sort-of replaced by rooms requiring glass breaking/rope throwing to enter and by the safe code puzzles

But yes it's mostly more of the same - more Jak 2 to Jak 3 than TPL to Jak 2, to make another Naughty Dog comparison! Personally I am happy for sequels to do that, especially when the series is story/character focused, and it is what I was expecting TLOU2 to be.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:36 am

OrangeRKN wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:- There's also no innovation here. It's almost exactly the same gameplay loop as TLOU1, just better looking and with a different story.


Interested in what you would consider the best approach for a sequel in balancing innovating with new ideas and iterating on the gameplay style already established by the first game. I think TLOU2 does a good job in iterating on the gameplay with:


Just to be clear, I'm absolutely not ok with the "you don't like it huh? So what would YOU do then eh?" line of argument. I'm not entirely sure that's what you're doing here because well, you're you and you asked nicely, but still. Not liking something doesn't mean having an idea of how to improve on it.

- More combat pillars. You've an expanded melee option here, which amounts to a dodge button, and Uncharted's long-grass-stealth and that's literally it. I'd have liked Ellie's experience as a seasoned survivor of this world to be expressed through a greater command of combat spaces: more reliance on environmental control (one trap gadget is nice but more would've been better), a demoting of basic Runners in deadliness to demonstrate her aptitude. Basically, BioShock 2's combat vs BioShock 1's.

- Expanded exploration that isn't just door puzzles. People disliked the infamous ladder rooms from TLoU1 but there are mechanics that would make exploring the environment more interesting. Hell, just give Ellie Nathan Drake's grapple, or allow her to climb things.

- More innovative storytelling. Have a radio, or a phone (handwaved away through lore), something dynamic that could deliver story through means other than non-controllable cutscenes or found notes. More in-game mini encounters too: all the story so far happens in those cutscenes with everything in-between feeling like filler (enjoyable as it is).

- Crafting that isn't the exact same system from the first game. I don't know here but, you know, any addition would have been nice.

I appreciate that the majority of time was sunk into the graphics and the story, and both so far are great. But as a game it's straight out of 2013.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by OrangeRKN » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:11 am

I wasn't trying to press you for "how would YOU have made this??" so sorry it came across like that - although I do appreciate and find the above interesting!

I meant that with sequels in a general sense (but obviously coming from the perspective of TLOU2) how much expectation and desire do you think there should be to innovate versus deliver essentially more of the same - or on the flipside how much of a criticism is it if a sequel is largely more of the same experience. I wanted to give some examples of how TLOU2 has some iterative changes in its gameplay which (while I think address my main wants from the first game and are significant) are mostly appended to gameplay delivering a similar overall experience. On a gameplay scale from innovation to more-of-the-same, TLOU2 is not completely on the right side as it has iteration on mechanics, but it's much more on that side than the far left where you have sequels that completely change genre or whatever.

Look at say Spelunky 2. I haven't played much of it but what I have it feels like a very sequely-sequel - it's just more Spelunky. More items, more enemies, more areas - but you're essentially playing Spelunky. I don't think that's a bad thing about the game because Spelunky is great and that-but-more is an appealing offer. As a rougelite however compare it's design with Hades which came out at a very similar time and Spelunky 2 does feel old.

The value of innovation vs iteration is going to vary from person to person, so I was wondering with TLOU2 how much that criticism will weigh on your opinion of the game.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Fade » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:00 pm

jiggles wrote:Fade, I think that’s being dismissive.

The fact that *none* of the black characters who have lines survive any of the THREE titles is not offset by “everyone dies” (they don’t) or “people of all races die”.

And neither does having fought the Trunchbull earlier excuse the climactic encounter of the war on the island being “ok, that, but now it’s a black guy” who must be honestly about 8 feet tall and you pass it by brutally and slowly slicing up his face with a sickle in vivid detail vs when you fought the white one who you punched until you crushed her head with her hammer, off-screen, in a fraction of the time.

The encounter with the king of the brutes (iirc, the only black brute in the game, naturally) isn’t just you winning by overpowering him like the other brutes, it’s a drawn out mutilation.


And I say this as someone who didn’t cop to this as I was playing through it. I had it pointed out after the fact and even though I think the game is outstanding, it’s still strawberry floated up. This isn’t happenstance, the world and characters are all invented to be as they are. Even if it’s not done with malicious intent, but rather a subconscious prejudice they aren’t aware they’re expressing by just designing the characters and scripting the events “like they pictured in their head”, the fact that they’re not being questioned on this trend internally is cause for concern. Clearly Naughty Dog need more black voices in their ear, because as the titles roll out, the characterisation of this situation evolves from coincidence to trend to behaviour.

Sorry I wasn't trying to be dismissive, their portrayal of black people is far from perfect, I just didn't think it was fair to cherry pick one black person and act like that's the series entire portrayal of black people.

When you have Henry, Sam, Marlene, Riley, Isaac and Nora all being portrayed incredibly differently I don't see how you can point at that boss character and try and imply non-coincidental racism with a straight face.

Surely part of inclusivity is portraying each race and gender in a variety of ways?

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:50 pm

Met a dog.

Shot a dog

Heard someone scream "BEAR!!"

Felt bad

Big thoughts about Ellie's actions throughout this. That's for later though.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Denster » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:47 pm

You killed bear?

You monster.

Get the kite, Beavis.
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Fade » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:40 pm

RIP Bear :cry:

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