The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheats!

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:11 am

Zilnad wrote:You don't have to answer as this is an extremely personal question but have you ever experienced a real addiction?

Of course we, as the players, can clearly see that the characters are on the wrong path and that their thirsts for revenge are destroying their psyches and damning everyone around them. But the characters themselves are blind to that. Even if they understand it's the case, they can't acknowledge it to themselves. Ellie is addicted to revenge.

Can't you understand it from that perspective? To essentially say that Ellie and Abbie should just snap out of it is completely missing the point and incredibly naive.

Also, have you played Spec Ops recently? I have and, although it's still decent, it really hasn't aged all that well from both story and gameplay perspectives.


I think revenge is treated less like a virus and more analogous to cordyceps, something rotting her brain and taking over her actions. Which is fine and dandy, if that's what they intended it's a clever twist on the genre of body snatching diseases. But 1) that's an interpretation and isn't laid bare in the text of the game and 2) there's still the disconnect there. The world Ellie moves through is designed to showcase the fact that she is wrong. Dina tells her she's wrong, the NPC dialogue tells her she's wrong, Ellie's history tells her she's wrong. But she never learns nor even attempts to. Even if it's a great idea, it still makes for a frustrating game that never really goes anywhere with its message.

And it's strange that you say her snapping out of it is naive as...that's literally what happens in the end.

Me and Banjo were discussing this last night and decided a much better version of the game would have you playing as Abby from the start, basically that her half comes first. The sniper scene plays out as normal but then...holy gooseberry fool is that Tommy? And there's a girl with him? Flashback to Abby killing Joel and the rest of the game is spent avoiding/hunting Ellie. Imagine how much better that would've worked: you've got the perspective shift the game prides itself on, a better twist, and the same discomfort about your actions as you're hunting the character you knew and loved from the first game! All without the needless suffering and cruelty that marks Ellie's chapters. Listening to the Vice Games/Waypoint spoilercast this morning and they came up with exactly the same idea (and actually a better one: if it was Tommy leading the revenge quest with Ellie as an unwilling partner forced by her survivor's guilt to participate and using her inherent empathy to slowly 'infect' the others with her understanding).

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by OrangeRKN » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:13 am

Ellie is clearly a violent person but I don't think addiction to violence or bloodlust is her driving motivation. We don't really see her take pleasure in violence, only be hardened against it. It's more a recurring trauma and grief over Joel's death that manifests as anger and a desire for revenge. Back on the farm we see her still suffering from essentially PTSD and her mistaken belief is obviously that killing Abby will set things right and bring her peace. I don't think that's an addiction per se, rather her trauma preventing her from moving beyond the anger stage of her grief.

It's been mentioned that the characters in the game are all incapable of learning or seeing the bigger picture on the futility of revenge, but is that true of anyone other than Ellie? Dina becomes a passive element in the story, while Jessie is obviously much more concerned with getting everyone home safe (and that comes to a head over the choice to pursue Abby or save Tommy). Tommy is interesting because he doesn't have a character arc himself - but the player's perspective on him changes throughout the game. His desire for revenge goes untempered throughout, but it's increasingly obvious he is a cold killer without remorse (through both his casually discovered torture and the literal methodical distance of the sniper rifle as a weapon). While he grieves his brother he doesn't appear traumatised as Ellie is, but instead committed out of a sense of justice and vengeance. I don't think thoughts on the futility of revenge would ever particularly concern him.

With Abby, she starts the game seeking revenge but that is not her driver for the majority of it. When she is drawn to it a second time, Lev persuades her out of it - and that's despite the recency of Ellie and Tommy killing all of her friends. Unlike Ellie, Abby does change a lot over the course of three days.

It's only Ellie then who is so stubbornly incapable of learning, and the tragedy is that when she finally does it is too late (whereas if the game had ended at the end of the days in Seattle, it would not have been tragic).

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:22 am

OrangeRKN wrote:Ellie is clearly a violent person but I don't think addiction to violence or bloodlust is her driving motivation. We don't really see her take pleasure in violence, only be hardened against it. It's more a recurring trauma and grief over Joel's death that manifests as anger and a desire for revenge. Back on the farm we see her still suffering from essentially PTSD and her mistaken belief is obviously that killing Abby will set things right and bring her peace. I don't think that's an addiction per se, rather her trauma preventing her from moving beyond the anger stage of her grief.

It's been mentioned that the characters in the game are all incapable of learning or seeing the bigger picture on the futility of revenge, but is that true of anyone other than Ellie? Dina becomes a passive element in the story, while Jessie is obviously much more concerned with getting everyone home safe (and that comes to a head over the choice to pursue Abby or save Tommy). Tommy is interesting because he doesn't have a character arc himself - but the player's perspective on him changes throughout the game. His desire for revenge goes untempered throughout, but it's increasingly obvious he is a cold killer without remorse (through both his casually discovered torture and the literal methodical distance of the sniper rifle as a weapon). While he grieves his brother he doesn't appear traumatised as Ellie is, but instead committed out of a sense of justice and vengeance. I don't think thoughts on the futility of revenge would ever particularly concern him.

With Abby, she starts the game seeking revenge but that is not her driver for the majority of it. When she is drawn to it a second time, Lev persuades her out of it - and that's despite the recency of Ellie and Tommy killing all of her friends. Unlike Ellie, Abby does change a lot over the course of three days.

It's only Ellie then who is so stubbornly incapable of learning, and the tragedy is that when she finally does it is too late (whereas if the game had ended at the end of the days in Seattle, it would not have been tragic).


This is why Abby's half of the game is the superior one, but it also demonstrates the failures of the narrative. Both pro/antagonists who have this revelation that revenge is not the answer either have it dealt to them by a third party (Lev), or just...have it out of nowhere? So everything the game was saying up-to that point, that Ellie refuses to see reason, that she is inherently set on this task no matter the cost...just evaporates.

As for the farm scene, it's not even slightly subtle that it's PTSD but again, Ellie has killed a pregnant woman at this point. She saw an entire city burn in her wake. The idea that she learned nothing, nothing, from this is absurd and incredibly frustrating from a narrative point of view. This is why I genuinely thought the game was ending: this was the natural end. We pull back from Dina and Ellie huddled in the barn with their crying child knowing that no, revenge didn't help and that some traumas can't be magicked away by your actions...they're forever. There's your tragic ending.

Also, on a completely separate note, one thing I really think doesn't work at all, and is only viable given the non-chronological nature of the game, is that Abby would trek from Seattle to Jackson to slowly torture Joel to death. This is the one and only time this side of Abby is shown and it simply does not jive at all with the rest of her character.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by OrangeRKN » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:44 am

Tafdolphin wrote:And it's strange that you say her snapping out of it is naive as...that's literally what happens in the end.


A culmination of factors cause that final "snapping out of it", because together they deny Ellie any of the carthasis or expectations she had over how killing Abby would bring her peace. The fact Abby is already dying when Ellie finds her takes away her agency. Abby being so weakened contradicts Ellie's preferred view of her as the monstrous villain that killed Joel. Abby refuses repeatedly to fight, not giving Ellie the clear-cut showdown she wanted (her cutting Abby down and not just killing her on the post is evidence of that). Lev is there and in need of Abby's help, again contradicting the preferred view of her as the villain. Even with all that, it takes Ellie actually going through the motions, beating Abby and being at the point of killing her, to understand there will be no release. It doesn't seem undeserved as the point at which Ellie finally has that realisation, even coming after everything else. Everything else Ellie has done she can dismiss in part thinking that getting to Abby will finally make things different.


Tafdolphin wrote:Me and Banjo were discussing this last night and decided a much better version of the game would have you playing as Abby from the start, basically that her half comes first. The sniper scene plays out as normal but then...holy gooseberry fool is that Tommy? And there's a girl with him? Flashback to Abby killing Joel and the rest of the game is spent avoiding/hunting Ellie.


The sniper section is my favourite part of the whole game. Partly in how it plays out moment-to-moment which itself is very cool and unique, and partly for how it is set up - which relies on Ellie's half coming first.

The game uses flashbacks as mechanical tutorials, for example in the introduction of swimming. When a flashback has Tommy teaching Ellie to shoot with the sniper rifle, it's a tutorial for sniping and introduces mechanics such as bullet drop and drawing infected enemies out with the sound/impact of the bullet. Yet it also perfectly foreshadows that section as Abby up against Tommy sniping. His prowess with the weapon has been demonstrated, and moreover he uses the same mechanics but against the player and you're made to deal with them from the opposite perspective as he deliberately draws out infected to attack you. The section is also foreshadowed and built to through both Ellie and Abby's halves by radio conversations and the like, and most notably by the point where Ellie and Jessie split off - again though this is also there for another reason (Ellie prioritising revenge against Abby over saving Tommy) and so it being foreshadowing of the sniping section itself is subtly and effectively done. It feels the cleverest part of the game to me because of all of that, as well as just being a very tense and fun section to play.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:54 am

OrangeRKN wrote:
A culmination of factors cause that final "snapping out of it", because together they deny Ellie any of the carthasis or expectations she had over how killing Abby would bring her peace. The fact Abby is already dying when Ellie finds her takes away her agency. Abby being so weakened contradicts Ellie's preferred view of her as the monstrous villain that killed Joel. Abby refuses repeatedly to fight, not giving Ellie the clear-cut showdown she wanted (her cutting Abby down and not just killing her on the post is evidence of that). Lev is there and in need of Abby's help, again contradicting the preferred view of her as the villain. Even with all that, it takes Ellie actually going through the motions, beating Abby and being at the point of killing her, to understand there will be no release. It doesn't seem undeserved as the point at which Ellie finally has that realisation, even coming after everything else. Everything else Ellie has done she can dismiss in part thinking that getting to Abby will finally make things different.


This is a valid interpretation, but it's just that. An interpretation. In the game they have a fight, Joel appears, and Ellie relents. Just as it worked for you, it absolutely didn't for me. We'd had 30 hours as the player learning how relentless Ellie is, and she herself had had what, a year? to get over her hatred. The idea that it just pops like a bubble is...bad. It's bad storytelling.

Tafdolphin wrote:Me and Banjo were discussing this last night and decided a much better version of the game would have you playing as Abby from the start, basically that her half comes first. The sniper scene plays out as normal but then...holy gooseberry fool is that Tommy? And there's a girl with him? Flashback to Abby killing Joel and the rest of the game is spent avoiding/hunting Ellie.


The sniper section is my favourite part of the whole game. Partly in how it plays out moment-to-moment which itself is very cool and unique, and partly for how it is set up - which relies on Ellie's half coming first.

The game uses flashbacks as mechanical tutorials, for example in the introduction of swimming. When a flashback has Tommy teaching Ellie to shoot with the sniper rifle, it's a tutorial for sniping and introduces mechanics such as bullet drop and drawing infected enemies out with the sound/impact of the bullet. Yet it also perfectly foreshadows that section as Abby up against Tommy sniping. His prowess with the weapon has been demonstrated, and moreover he uses the same mechanics but against the player and you're made to deal with them from the opposite perspective as he deliberately draws out infected to attack you. The section is also foreshadowed and built to through both Ellie and Abby's halves by radio conversations and the like, and most notably by the point where Ellie and Jessie split off - again though this is also there for another reason (Ellie prioritising revenge against Abby over saving Tommy) and so it being foreshadowing of the sniping section itself is subtly and effectively done. It feels the cleverest part of the game to me because of all of that, as well as just being a very tense and fun section to play.


I love that section, which is why I think it would work so much better in the way I described. My one problem I had was it was that, not for the first time, I wasn't sure if the game knew I knew it was Tommy from the start. Like, the reveal of Tommy at the end is certainly framed like a reveal, but it...isn't? There are 3 people referred to as Trespassers in the game: Ellie, Tommy and Jesse. We know where two of them are, and that only one of them, Tommy, is a sniper. So we know from the start that this is a running fight against Tommy. But then we get to the grappling scene and...yeah it's framed as a reveal. It's very odd.

And TLoU2 is Chekov's Gun: The Game. Any little detail mentioned slightly off-handedly comes back later, to the point where I was able to start charting the course of the game through its pithy 'asides'. Ellie's love of astronomy? Probably something to do with a rocket museum coming up. Abby's fear of heights? Probably going up high (I imagined there'd be a mission up the Space Needle). Zev and Yara's mum gets a mention? That's why Abby went to the island etc etc Everything it does narratively it pushes too far and too hard. It's incredibly unsubtle with everything it does.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by jiggles » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:05 am

yeah, it’s pretty shocking that, by going to Seattle, failing to get her revenge and having PTSD about the whole affair, Ellie did not learn the lesson that revenge does not solve your problems.

Pretty dumb plotting to send her off to get the revenge she was denied in an effort to be at peace, only to realise in the pivotal moment, as it was all over and the weight had been lifted, that she had finally come to terms with Joel’s death and the act of revenge itself wasn’t her salvation.

As the credits roll, and Ellie (who up until this point was a singularly-focused instrument of hatred and vengeance) has now chosen to spare the life of the person she hated the most, lost everything in her blind pursuit of revenge, and now carries a physical reminder of that lesson with her for the rest of life, the player is left wondering

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:11 am

...ok? I'm not willing to get into a slanging match here so being sarcastic isn't going to get a response from me. I'm happy talking about the game but not being mocked because I have a different interpretation than someone else. Sorry.

What was the diary entry you were alluding to earlier? I never saw it

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Fade » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:14 am

I definitely think the game would have had more of an impact and been more interesting if Abby's section had come first, and they pretended that Ellie wasn't in the game.

@Taf I don't see how you can say the revelations about revenge come out of nowhere, Abby realises after she kills Joel that it hasn't made her feel better, and her Journey getting to know Lev reinforces her empathy for people she used to see as the enemy. It's not like no character development happens then Lev just tells her to stop when she was a cold blooded killer 5 seconds ago. She's just spent the rest of the game saving people the rest of her group are trying to kill.

Also, I don't think it's improbable you'd want to kill someone in the heat of the moment if they had just killed your pregnant friend and the love of your life.

As for Ellie, yes it seems more sudden, but as she's Killing Abby all the things she has lost on this journey are rushing through her head (which is why she is crying) she realises it's not going to bring them all back, and she's going to be responsible for Lev dying as well. Had she tried to kill Abby any other way she wouldn't have had time for that reflection in the moment. It's like she's been waiting 2 years for that hit of revenge that she thinks is going to make her feel good and clear her head, but in that moment all she feels is pain rather than satisfaction so she stops. Then she sits there crying afterwards because just like after Joel saved her, she has no purpose again.

I like how the game takes two different views of revenge, Ellie's drug like addiction made her story distinct from Abby's

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Edd » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:16 am

I don't necessarily agree that Abby is so much better or less naïve than Ellie. If you go on the basis that both characters are playing out the same story, its just Abby is further along in hers. At the start of the game Abby's been wanting and looking for revenge for 5 years, you see how it ruins her relationships in the flashbacks and she ultimately crosses the country and gets it. It's not until after she kills Joel she realises it didn't really change anything.

Ellie's revenge story is just a lot quicker and more impulsive, which is in character. The only difference is she doesn't go through with the final kill.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Denster » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:18 am

Abby gets her revenge and only then realises its futility. It doesnt bring her dad back or the peace and fulfilment she thought it would.
Shes spent the last few years honing her skills and bulking her body. Being a warrior for the WLF but all the while thirsting for revenge. We see most of her aftermath of dealimg with this and we also see her motivations.
What she lost was massive but her actions took away from Ellie.

Ellie had no part in that.
Their actions from the point joel makes that call are many and varied but have interlinking effects and consequences.

Abby got her revenge. In a horrific and appalling fashion. Over many hours. We dont see that.


One saw a pathetic near dead creature at her feet and ruthlessly executed them. Unable to let go of her hate despite the pleading of his loved one. Sure of her right to do so.

The other is Ellie.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by jiggles » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:24 am

Tafdolphin wrote:...ok?

What was the diary entry you were alluding to earlier? I never saw it


:lol: I’m only messing about. I don’t even believe the game is a revenge story.

On the return to the farm, her thoughts in the diary are around what drove her to leave Dina and pursue Abby. The words are along the lines of “I wanted to stay, to give you my life, but it’s not mine to give”, and with all the talk of wanting her life to mean something, her workmanlike approach when in Seattle (despite the weeks to process Joel’s death and let the anger subside), and her flashbacks to Joel’s brutal death (rather than something traumatic from Seattle), I think she was driven by obligation rather than hatred.

The “PTSD” is more the nagging realisation that “you don’t deserve this life”


I posted my thoughts way earlier in the thread. I’ll see can I find them

Here they are

jiggles wrote:Revisited the epilogue to do something I forgot to do and it has contextualised the game in a whole different way.

Examining Ellie’s notebook and she’s writing a final song about contemplating whether she should have stayed with Dina. One particular line stood out where she describes her life as not hers to give.

The game isn’t even a revenge story! It’s a story about obligation.

The WLF are obligated to bring Joel to justice for dooming the planet. The violent nature with which that justice is applied is Abby’s vengeance for her father but that is ultimately pretty inconsequential.

We first think Ellie is on a quest for bloody revenge due to the WLF killing someone she loved. However, with the time it’s taken her and Dina to make the trip to Seattle, that pain shouldn’t be so raw as to fuel her aggression as much as it seems to have done. We’re shown the museum flashback and wait, it wasn’t just someone she loved, it was effectively her father.

Later, we find out that, no, actually, Joel died with Ellie hating him. Her vengeance is driven by having the closure on their relationship robbed of her.

But then, they actually had that closure on the night of Ellie’s kiss with Dina. The love she had for him is still gone, but she owed it to him to not hate him for what he did. So why couldn’t Ellie just quit while she was ahead in the game’s final act?

She owed it to Joel. Her life was his. She wasn’t fuelled by anger anymore, but by duty. Abby had to die by, effectively, Joel’s posthumous self-defence. It wasn’t that Joel’s death was haunting Ellie, it’s that Ellie’s *life* was haunting her. Every moment she lived without fulfilling her duty to Joel was a moment unearned.

That’s why she was still driven to complete the task after weeks (months?) on the road for the wounds to heal, and why her approach in Seattle is so workmanlike. She doesn’t want to do this, she has to. She just wants it over with so she can move on, her obligation fulfilled.

The line from the first trailer “I’m gonna find... and I’m gonna kill... every last one of them” doesn’t actually exist in the game, if I was paying attention. Because with all the misdirection the marketing did, making it out to be a tale of revenge was just a part of that.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Fade » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:30 am

@Denster

I think people forget this world doesn't have police.

Joel didn't just kill Abby's Dad, he killed a ton of Fireflies and staff in the hospital as well as destroying any hope of a cure.

I don't think Abby's response is unjustified at all, this man literally destroyed her life and the lives of everyone around her, and without her actions he'd be free to potentially do this again in the future.

@Jiggles I pretty much agree with you, kind of ties into my point about Ellie looking for a new purpose in life, her quest for revenge gives her that purpose.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Denster » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:41 am

Fade wrote:@Denster

I think people forget this world doesn't have police.

Joel didn't just kill Abby's Dad, he killed a ton of Fireflies and staff in the hospital as well as destroying any hope of a cure.

I don't think Abby's response is unjustified at all, this man literally destroyed her life and the lives of everyone around her, and without her actions he'd be free to potentially do this again in the future.


I never said it was unjustified. I think he deserved to die for what he did. I also completely understand why he did it and respect him finally owning not just the act but his lack of regret.
He deserved to die. So did Abby. So did Ellie.

Im glad both of them didn't.

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by OrangeRKN » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:48 am

Tafdolphin wrote:I love that section, which is why I think it would work so much better in the way I described. My one problem I had was it was that, not for the first time, I wasn't sure if the game knew I knew it was Tommy from the start. Like, the reveal of Tommy at the end is certainly framed like a reveal, but it...isn't? There are 3 people referred to as Trespassers in the game: Ellie, Tommy and Jesse. We know where two of them are, and that only one of them, Tommy, is a sniper. So we know from the start that this is a running fight against Tommy. But then we get to the grappling scene and...yeah it's framed as a reveal. It's very odd.

And TLoU2 is Chekov's Gun: The Game. Any little detail mentioned slightly off-handedly comes back later, to the point where I was able to start charting the course of the game through its pithy 'asides'. Ellie's love of astronomy? Probably something to do with a rocket museum coming up. Abby's fear of heights? Probably going up high (I imagined there'd be a mission up the Space Needle). Zev and Yara's mum gets a mention? That's why Abby went to the island etc etc Everything it does narratively it pushes too far and too hard. It's incredibly unsubtle with everything it does.


You should read back through the thread... Denster didn't realise it was Tommy even after playing it until it came up here :lol: (No offense intended Denster, that was just a genuinely funny thread moment!) As it happens when I watched my girlfriend play the game she didn't realise it was Tommy to begin with either.

I agree most stuff is not very subtly set up, but I do think the sniping section was. Is anyone going to play the sniping tutorial flashback and think "oh this must be setting up for Tommy trying to snipe me" and not just "this is a sniping tutorial". The references to a stranger on the pier do make it clear it's a plot point coming up, but I genuinely thought the point of it was to give that scene where Ellie and Jessie split off from each other. It's only when switching to Abby and it comes up again I realised I would be playing it (but even then the actual mechanics of it were more than I was expecting).

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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Denster » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:53 am

Tafdolphin wrote:
Zilnad wrote:You don't have to answer as this is an extremely personal question but have you ever experienced a real addiction?

Of course we, as the players, can clearly see that the characters are on the wrong path and that their thirsts for revenge are destroying their psyches and damning everyone around them. But the characters themselves are blind to that. Even if they understand it's the case, they can't acknowledge it to themselves. Ellie is addicted to revenge.

Can't you understand it from that perspective? To essentially say that Ellie and Abbie should just snap out of it is completely missing the point and incredibly naive.

Also, have you played Spec Ops recently? I have and, although it's still decent, it really hasn't aged all that well from both story and gameplay perspectives.


I think revenge is treated less like a virus and more analogous to cordyceps, something rotting her brain and taking over her actions. Which is fine and dandy, if that's what they intended it's a clever twist on the genre of body snatching diseases. But 1) that's an interpretation and isn't laid bare in the text of the game and 2) there's still the disconnect there. The world Ellie moves through is designed to showcase the fact that she is wrong. Dina tells her she's wrong, the NPC dialogue tells her she's wrong, Ellie's history tells her she's wrong. But she never learns nor even attempts to. Even if it's a great idea, it still makes for a frustrating game that never really goes anywhere with its message.

And it's strange that you say her snapping out of it is naive as...that's literally what happens in the end.

Me and Banjo were discussing this last night and decided a much better version of the game would have you playing as Abby from the start, basically that her half comes first. The sniper scene plays out as normal but then...holy gooseberry fool is that Tommy? And there's a girl with him? Flashback to Abby killing Joel and the rest of the game is spent avoiding/hunting Ellie. Imagine how much better that would've worked: you've got the perspective shift the game prides itself on, a better twist, and the same discomfort about your actions as you're hunting the character you knew and loved from the first game! All without the needless suffering and cruelty that marks Ellie's chapters. Listening to the Vice Games/Waypoint spoilercast this morning and they came up with exactly the same idea (and actually a better one: if it was Tommy leading the revenge quest with Ellie as an unwilling partner forced by her survivor's guilt to participate and using her inherent empathy to slowly 'infect' the others with her understanding).


Better for you.
Not better for everyone.

Personally.
Id have loved a game of just Ellie and Dina off on adventures.
Their path could have taken them to seattle or Abbys group could have met them.
She could have heard Abbys story then.
What happens then?
What are the dynamics of the Abby/Ellie relationship.
What then happens to Joel. Back in Jackson
The game offers lots of what ifs and its great to speculate.
But thats not what we got.

Its subjective. Im glad you played it and ive enjoyed the debate.

It will throw up new thoughts and experiences when i next play it.

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Wedgie
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Wedgie » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:27 pm

Don’t forget that the fireflies didn’t give Ellie a choice. They are willing to kill her for a cure that have no 100% sure guarantee of success without her being given the choice. Joel in my eyes was right to save her.

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Denster wrote:My phone messaged me yesterday after i'd encouraged him to download and play the RESi demo.


Super Intelligent Phones Are Here!!!! We are dooooomed!
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Tafdolphin
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tafdolphin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:55 pm

I think there's two things I'm taking away from all this:

- Whatever the game's successes or failures, it did enough to stoke multiple interpretations and conversations
- I finished it yesterday and my interest is already slipping away. The first stayed with me for years but I can't see this being discussed much in the future. It's already dropped off the cultural radar in a way something like God of War hasn't.

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Tomous
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tomous » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:57 pm

Wedgie wrote:Don’t forget that the fireflies didn’t give Ellie a choice. They are willing to kill her for a cure that have no 100% sure guarantee of success without her being given the choice. Joel in my eyes was right to save her.



Weren't there notes lying about that suggested they'd already done this many times without success

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Wedgie
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Wedgie » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:46 pm

Tomous wrote:
Wedgie wrote:Don’t forget that the fireflies didn’t give Ellie a choice. They are willing to kill her for a cure that have no 100% sure guarantee of success without her being given the choice. Joel in my eyes was right to save her.



Weren't there notes lying about that suggested they'd already done this many times without success


Yes there are. But Ellie is the first case of being immune to the virus to fall in their laps.

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Denster wrote:My phone messaged me yesterday after i'd encouraged him to download and play the RESi demo.


Super Intelligent Phones Are Here!!!! We are dooooomed!
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Tomous
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PostRe: The Last of Us II - Update to add lots of stuff, inc. Grounded mode, perma death and gameplayer modifiers. And cheat
by Tomous » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:56 pm

Wedgie wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Wedgie wrote:Don’t forget that the fireflies didn’t give Ellie a choice. They are willing to kill her for a cure that have no 100% sure guarantee of success without her being given the choice. Joel in my eyes was right to save her.



Weren't there notes lying about that suggested they'd already done this many times without success


Yes there are. But Ellie is the first case of being immune to the virus to fall in their laps.



I thought the others they'd tested were immune to the virus too though?

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