The Money Thread...

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Rocsteady
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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Rocsteady » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:43 am

Looks like Igor's going to be right again with his bet on silver.

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pjbetman
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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by pjbetman » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:35 pm

Grumpy David wrote:
pjbetman wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:
pjbetman wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:
pjbetman wrote:
Tomous wrote:Not sure I've asked this before but I'm finally getting my gooseberry fool together-what's the best way of investing in index funds?

I want to use the £20k ISA allowance and put it in some index fund where it can sit for the long-term and tick along nicely.

What are the best online portals to do this through? Obviously looking for as low a fee as possible. Nutmeg is one I've been looking at.



Look into Blockfi. 8.6% on balances.

Use this ccode for $10 each:-

https://blockfi.com/?ref=958e20e9


Doesn't seem to fit the criteria of:

    Being able to use the ISA allowance

    Being an Index Tracker



Yeah true, but why put it in an ISA that will perform miles worse than the blockfi accounts, despite it being tax free? The same logic for the index tracker. It was just a suggestion to use a better source of income/interest. And there's loads of them now - crypto.com, blockfi, nexo, wirex etc. people need to be moving away from these poorly peforming low interest bank accounts, ISA's, trackers etc. The banking system will be dead in 5 years unless they treat their customers fairly, like these new starters are. They've raised the bar massively. Debit/credit cards and loans are next for these institutions.


My S&S ISA has from June 2018 to January 2021 returned 55% and I'm willing to post the screenshot if not believed. That's a tax free return too due to the ISA wrapper and that's from holding during the lockdown market crash last March when it went to minus 20%. And being a regulated company it has the FSCS and Financial Ombudsman consumer protections you'd expect.

Blockfi is “high interest” because it’s not a savings account and it’s not a bank - it’s some random company offering high interest to get your money. "If it sounds too good to be true..."

If (when) they go broke your money is gone.

When they get hacked like other crypto sites have done, your money is gone.

When exposed as the largest fraud since Enron or Bitconnect, your money is gone.

If you want to gamble on it, ok, but this is an incalculably high risk product and should be treated as such.

Peer to peer finance sites like Ratesetter have far more risk than people realise and can be far less liquid than people expect them to be and especially when they need them to be. Lending your money out to low credit scoring clients is high risk lending. If the bank won't lend the client money because of failing to meet either/both affordability / credit scoring requirements then why should you want to take such a risk? Do you trust these Meme companies to do sufficient KYC and DD on their prospective clients?

I've a high risk tolerance for investing but this is the sort of thing thing that belongs in the 95/5 ratio (and arguably not even in the 5). 95% of your savings into normal index trackers etc and 5% into the "fun" activity of stock picking or crypto currency (to hold).

There's also no chance that your 5 year prediction comes true. Crypto sucks for use as a currency, it's way too volatile (and slow) for use in day to day expenditure or as a way to borrow on a loan or credit card.


Haha fair enough.....i didnt realise blockfi wasnt insured - it kind of plays around the issue of security, using Gemini...which i'm not sure about, but seems legit. Regulation will happen in this sector, just because it isn't FCA regulated doesn't necessarily mean your funds are at risk. But this isnt an area that i know much about.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by stating that you made 55% then lost 20%. That doesn't seem very stable. Bitcoin has outpeformed that by many orders of magnitude. In June 2018 it was $6189, now it's about $33k. Approx 500% increase. I bet you your fund will struggle over the next 2 years, and most of that 55% will be completely gone, we're heading into the biggest recession in our lifetime. And a lot of people and institutional investors will be hedging into btc. I think the perception of bitcoin being risky, unstable is a very outdated viewpoint.

Bitcoin is also much much quicker when sending international transfers. My bank takes 2-4 days to action a payment to an international bank/institution. Bitcoin does it in less than an hour. I agree though, you're unlikely to be able to pay for a coffee on the fly with it......at the moment, but these issues will be ironed out, it's evolvng very quickly.

Listen, i'm not trying to argue with you, i'm just pointing out issues i see with traditional investments. You clearly know lot more than i do on the subject of finance, and i respect that.


If you didn't know Blockfi isn't a regulated financial product then it's probably not the best thing to recommend to others.

You've misread and misunderstood the point of mentioning the ISA.

I was down minus 20% and went up to 55% (not the other way round). Tax free.

Blockfi promises up to 8.6% interest rate (all the dodgy products seem to hover around this near double digit interest rate so that alone raises an immediate red flag). Which isn't as high of a rate of return as I've had even with a collapse in global stock markets to impact those returns. I'm not saying its stable but compared to a lending system based on crypto currency and peer to peer finance that has no proper regulation, it is incomparable.

Blockfi isn't bitcoin which has been the best performing asset of the last decade but that doesn't make Blockfi or Bitcoin the most suitable investment for most people. Bitcoin is a currency that behaves like a commodity (and unlike currencies and commodities it's got a very strong incentive to never spend/consume but to just hold) with volatility that makes a 100% equities portfolio look as stable as cash savings.

There's probably an argument to have 5% or so in crypto currency if you're particularly keen to take a punt on it. The 5% of total savings can be YOLO money if that suits risk tolerance.

Bitcoin can't scale to replace visa or mastercard. It can't process enough transactions simultaneously for it to ever go mainstream.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_scalability_problem

I can see the appeal of bitcoin being a much higher percentage particularly if you live somewhere suffering hyper inflation like Venezuela or you have currency export controls on your money like in China.

I've used Transferwise to send money abroad and it's essentially an instant process. No need to buy bitcoin in pounds then send bitcoins to someone else to then transfer into their home currency and far less complicated too.

You can point out issues with traditional investment but it's worth remembering that these new services carry some potentially huge risks that make them ill suited to many people.


Oh i see, but the point still stands that it went down 20%....what's to stop that happening again? I certainly wouldnt like my dough in a global investment portfolio (or any to be honest) during a global pandemic. We haven't seen any of the financial/economic effects of that yet, but it wont be pretty.

The bitcoin scaling issue is the same scaling issue that the internet had in 1992. The internet, even now, cant scale what it's forecast to transmit/receive over the next couple of years. It's continually having the evolve to meet demand. Bitcoin will do exactly the same, as there's billions invested in it from a mining point of view. These miners are the exact same people who are technically driving the innovation in all sorts of modern technology (there's a high barrier to entry). It's in good hands.

I get the hyper inflation arguments for using bitcoin (and it's massive in those countries now), but wanting high returns isnt limited to poor people in foreign countries. Institutional investment is driving useage/price more than anyone now. This will drive the innovation in regulation as well. There will be a financial incentive for someone to crossover the regulation to the cryptosphere. It's inevitable.

How long are we going to be talking about people 'taking a punt' on bitcoin? Or discussing how risky it is? It's the best performing asset over the last decade, the last 5 years, the last 1 year, the last month, the last week and the last day. There's absolutely no argument against that...it's a fact. Are you going to be sitting here in another 1, 5, 10 years discussing how it cant scale, or you should only put 5% in? And we havent even reached the tipping point of mainstream useage/investment yet.

Ive never heard of Transferwise, but it isnt a bank im assuming? So, havent you got to transfer your money to them first? What's the point? Why cant i send my bitcoin to another bitcoin address in half an hour? If the banking system was better we wouldnt have these delays transferring currencies. There's clearly a massive improvement to be made in the banking system. If they dont sort it out crypto will replace it. It's a bit like talking about Royal Mail and sending an SMS in 1989.

I agree about the blockfi lending risk, even if neither of us know what it is. However, i can earn 0.8% per month using an extremely low risk algo trading forex, risking no more than 4% of the balance. So achieving 8%+ isnt as sketchy or risky as it seems. Who knows how they are earning the 8.6% to give to account holders? There's plenty of liquidity issues that businesses need to address, doesn't mean they are bad debtors or high risk borrowers.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by pjbetman » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:39 pm

Rocsteady wrote:Looks like Igor's going to be right again with his bet on silver.



Apparently this is wall street propoganda. Trying to catch out the reddit community with false information. There is no short squeeze....they're actually long on it.

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Rocsteady
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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Rocsteady » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:45 pm

I just thought it was seen as undervalued in relation to gold.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Jenuall » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:49 pm

Bitcoin has been significantly more volatile than most other investment options, there have been periods of dramatic growth but equally sharp losses.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Fuzzy Dunlop » Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:30 pm

Jenuall wrote:Bitcoin has been significantly more volatile than most other investment options, there have been periods of dramatic growth but equally sharp losses.


It is volatile no question. Though less so now and in the future compared to a few years ago. You get big corrections in any market though, it's healthy to have them. It can't just keep going up and up.

And it depends on what your after, for trading or trying to make money over the short term than it's tricky and you really got to know your stuff to come out a winner. If like me you bought some as an investment and see it as a long term then nothing comes close to it in terms of returns IMO.

But then I know strawberry float all about the banking services, like that crazy ISA thing Grumpy David linked too in the crypto thread(?) with 45% returns, that's pretty good! I genuinely thought the best banks offered in terms of saving was like under 1% :fp:

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Jenuall » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:37 pm

That's where I think the proviso of only putting say 5% of your investments into something like crypto comes in as limiting your input is the easiest way to mitigate against volatility.

Right now bitcoin looks like a reliable prospect, but who's to say when we will get another drop like winter 17/18? It took 3 years to get back to the December '17 high again.

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Grumpy David » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:24 pm

pjbetman wrote:Oh i see, but the point still stands that it went down 20%....what's to stop that happening again? I certainly wouldnt like my dough in a global investment portfolio (or any to be honest) during a global pandemic. We haven't seen any of the financial/economic effects of that yet, but it wont be pretty.

The bitcoin scaling issue is the same scaling issue that the internet had in 1992. The internet, even now, cant scale what it's forecast to transmit/receive over the next couple of years. It's continually having the evolve to meet demand. Bitcoin will do exactly the same, as there's billions invested in it from a mining point of view. These miners are the exact same people who are technically driving the innovation in all sorts of modern technology (there's a high barrier to entry). It's in good hands.

I get the hyper inflation arguments for using bitcoin (and it's massive in those countries now), but wanting high returns isnt limited to poor people in foreign countries. Institutional investment is driving useage/price more than anyone now. This will drive the innovation in regulation as well. There will be a financial incentive for someone to crossover the regulation to the cryptosphere. It's inevitable.

How long are we going to be talking about people 'taking a punt' on bitcoin? Or discussing how risky it is? It's the best performing asset over the last decade, the last 5 years, the last 1 year, the last month, the last week and the last day. There's absolutely no argument against that...it's a fact. Are you going to be sitting here in another 1, 5, 10 years discussing how it cant scale, or you should only put 5% in? And we havent even reached the tipping point of mainstream useage/investment yet.

Ive never heard of Transferwise, but it isnt a bank im assuming? So, havent you got to transfer your money to them first? What's the point? Why cant i send my bitcoin to another bitcoin address in half an hour? If the banking system was better we wouldnt have these delays transferring currencies. There's clearly a massive improvement to be made in the banking system. If they dont sort it out crypto will replace it. It's a bit like talking about Royal Mail and sending an SMS in 1989.

I agree about the blockfi lending risk, even if neither of us know what it is. However, i can earn 0.8% per month using an extremely low risk algo trading forex, risking no more than 4% of the balance. So achieving 8%+ isnt as sketchy or risky as it seems. Who knows how they are earning the 8.6% to give to account holders? There's plenty of liquidity issues that businesses need to address, doesn't mean they are bad debtors or high risk borrowers.


A potential 20% drop is a risk that I'm prepared to take, my investment timeline is likely to be almost 4 decades, and I'll be in a negatively correlated bonds fund the closer to my retirement (bonds tend to go up when the stock market tanks so volatility is largely offset). I knowingly chose a portfolio that reflects my risk appetite. If you have a shorter timeline for when you want to spend the money, you choose to buy a bonds portfolio alongside it and do whatever appropriate split suits e.g 80% equities and 20% bonds or if you're in your 60s you probably do 50/50 or more in favour of bonds.

Blockfi is potentially a 100% risk. Therefore its not some to put most/all of your money in. It's something that you put your YOLO money into.

Bitcoin is not what you originally recommended, you recommended Blockfi. Bitcoin has performed very well (although in January, Gamestop out performed it and in 2020, Tesla out performed it!) over most time spans but it still isn't a low risk thing to hold your savings in and in investment, diversification is very valuable. You wouldn't just hold 1 commodity if it was gold or oil or coffee beans or Tulips.

It's very easy with hindsight to say 1 particular investment would have paid off hugely. Its much harder to predict what investment performs best over the 10 years to 2031. If you want your YOLO budget to be more than 5% fine, but, it's not a set in stone rule.

Transferwise is a well known company, FCA regulated too. Your bitcoin idea relies on the person you are sending money to having a bitcoin wallet. And 30 minutes is a long time in bitcoin standards, it could easily drop 20% by the time the recipient goes to turn the bitcoin back to their local currency which is not something you'd expect with currency, the value of currency comes from the lack of drama.

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Ecno
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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Ecno » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:53 am

Bitcoin is as much an investment as Tulip bulbs were in 1636, no intrinsic value, no yield. At least gold looks pretty and has some industrial use.

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No:1 Final Fantasy Fan
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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by No:1 Final Fantasy Fan » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:06 pm

Im looking to open an ISA Stocks and Shares account. I was going to go with Halifax for £12.50/year but then I think Hargreaves has a better ISA with lower charges.
Can anyone recommend a good ISA for this?

Thanks

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Grumpy David » Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:50 pm

No:1 Final Fantasy Fan wrote:Im looking to open an ISA Stocks and Shares account. I was going to go with Halifax for £12.50/year but then I think Hargreaves has a better ISA with lower charges.
Can anyone recommend a good ISA for this?

Thanks


What type of investing do you want to do?

Just index funds?

Or wanting to pick individual company shares?

Monevator list here (need to view on desktop mode if using a mobile browser) is probably the best place to start.

https://monevator.com/compare-uk-cheapest-online-brokers/

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Holpil » Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:03 pm

No:1 Final Fantasy Fan wrote:Im looking to open an ISA Stocks and Shares account. I was going to go with Halifax for £12.50/year but then I think Hargreaves has a better ISA with lower charges.
Can anyone recommend a good ISA for this?

Thanks


I opened one with Fidelity and went with Vanguard LS80 a few years ago. It was a bit of a blind choice at the time based purely on what people were recommending, but its worked out quite well. I just deposit a fixed amount per month and increased it when everything took a hit at the start of the last lockdown. If you have a lump sum you want to put in, it might be best to split it over several months unless you really want to use up the 2020/21 allowance.

Ecno wrote:Bitcoin is as much an investment as Tulip bulbs were in 1636, no intrinsic value, no yield. At least gold looks pretty and has some industrial use.

For me, the intrinsic value is in being able to hold a currency or commodity on a computer/USB stick/piece of paper that I physically own and transfer it elsewhere both quickly and cheaply (scalability issues aside). I can't store cash on a computer, I have to entrust it with a bank. Obviously there are a ton of cryptocurrencies that can now do this, but Bitcoin has the edge in terms of longevity, lack of a central owner or CEO and honestly I haven't seen alts successfully do anything new yet.

Saying all this, I just treat it as a bit of fun and wouldn't have more than 20% of assets in Bitcoin at any time or recommend anyone else to.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by No:1 Final Fantasy Fan » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:50 pm

Holpil wrote:
No:1 Final Fantasy Fan wrote:Im looking to open an ISA Stocks and Shares account. I was going to go with Halifax for £12.50/year but then I think Hargreaves has a better ISA with lower charges.
Can anyone recommend a good ISA for this?

Thanks


I opened one with Fidelity and went with Vanguard LS80 a few years ago. It was a bit of a blind choice at the time based purely on what people were recommending, but its worked out quite well. I just deposit a fixed amount per month and increased it when everything took a hit at the start of the last lockdown. If you have a lump sum you want to put in, it might be best to split it over several months unless you really want to use up the 2020/21 allowance.

Cool thanks I'll just go with Hargreaves then.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by ignition » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:52 am

I've not looked into H&L in much detail, but just from a quick Google I think you would be paying higher fees than necessary with them. I hold 3 tacker funds with Vanguard directly and I think my total combined fees, inc. platform fee, only comes to 0.3%. By comparison H&L is 0.45%, so if I'm not mistaken then effectively H&L would cost you 50% more than Vanguard. Seems small at the start but can really add up when you factor compounding over a long period of time.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by satriales » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:56 am

Holpil wrote:
Ecno wrote:Bitcoin is as much an investment as Tulip bulbs were in 1636, no intrinsic value, no yield. At least gold looks pretty and has some industrial use.

For me, the intrinsic value is in being able to hold a currency or commodity on a computer/USB stick/piece of paper that I physically own and transfer it elsewhere both quickly and cheaply (scalability issues aside). I can't store cash on a computer, I have to entrust it with a bank. Obviously there are a ton of cryptocurrencies that can now do this, but Bitcoin has the edge in terms of longevity, lack of a central owner or CEO and honestly I haven't seen alts successfully do anything new yet.

Saying all this, I just treat it as a bit of fun and wouldn't have more than 20% of assets in Bitcoin at any time or recommend anyone else to.

I haven't followed bitcoin for a couple of years but it used to be very slow and expensive if you actually wanted to use it to buy/sell something. It was something like $50 and serveral hours for a transaction to go through, and would get worse as more people used it and the value went up.

Did that ever get fixed? I always thought an alt that didn't have those problems would eventually become No1 crypto.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Holpil » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:47 am

satriales wrote:
Holpil wrote:
Ecno wrote:Bitcoin is as much an investment as Tulip bulbs were in 1636, no intrinsic value, no yield. At least gold looks pretty and has some industrial use.

For me, the intrinsic value is in being able to hold a currency or commodity on a computer/USB stick/piece of paper that I physically own and transfer it elsewhere both quickly and cheaply (scalability issues aside). I can't store cash on a computer, I have to entrust it with a bank. Obviously there are a ton of cryptocurrencies that can now do this, but Bitcoin has the edge in terms of longevity, lack of a central owner or CEO and honestly I haven't seen alts successfully do anything new yet.

Saying all this, I just treat it as a bit of fun and wouldn't have more than 20% of assets in Bitcoin at any time or recommend anyone else to.

I haven't followed bitcoin for a couple of years but it used to be very slow and expensive if you actually wanted to use it to buy/sell something. It was something like $50 and serveral hours for a transaction to go through, and would get worse as more people used it and the value went up.

Did that ever get fixed? I always thought an alt that didn't have those problems would eventually become No1 crypto.

There have been improvements that are commonplace now like SegWit, that reduces fees by around 40% but it doesn't fix the slow transaction problem.

Lightning Network is the new(er) solution that acts as a second layer on top of Bitcoin to make transactions quicker and cheaper, but its not in widescale use yet. If it does take off, it would make transactions practically free and instant.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by pjbetman » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:48 am

Holpil wrote:
satriales wrote:
Holpil wrote:
Ecno wrote:Bitcoin is as much an investment as Tulip bulbs were in 1636, no intrinsic value, no yield. At least gold looks pretty and has some industrial use.

For me, the intrinsic value is in being able to hold a currency or commodity on a computer/USB stick/piece of paper that I physically own and transfer it elsewhere both quickly and cheaply (scalability issues aside). I can't store cash on a computer, I have to entrust it with a bank. Obviously there are a ton of cryptocurrencies that can now do this, but Bitcoin has the edge in terms of longevity, lack of a central owner or CEO and honestly I haven't seen alts successfully do anything new yet.

Saying all this, I just treat it as a bit of fun and wouldn't have more than 20% of assets in Bitcoin at any time or recommend anyone else to.

I haven't followed bitcoin for a couple of years but it used to be very slow and expensive if you actually wanted to use it to buy/sell something. It was something like $50 and serveral hours for a transaction to go through, and would get worse as more people used it and the value went up.

Did that ever get fixed? I always thought an alt that didn't have those problems would eventually become No1 crypto.

There have been improvements that are commonplace now like SegWit, that reduces fees by around 40% but it doesn't fix the slow transaction problem.

Lightning Network is the new(er) solution that acts as a second layer on top of Bitcoin to make transactions quicker and cheaper, but its not in widescale use yet. If it does take off, it would make transactions practically free and instant.



The thing is though, even VISA/debit card payments take 1-3 days to settle. But they allow the transaction to go ahead based on whatever they base it on, some kind of holding account that your bank has with the retailer. The slow bitcoin settlement argument is a false one in my opinion, it's actually much much faster. In my experience it can be from 15 minutes to 4 hours, normally about half an hour to an hour. Instant settlement, there is no such thing.

There's a new tech coming out very shortly called Strike, which is real time transactions with crypto.

Scalability https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2qSzRbG87U

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by Jenuall » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:41 pm

Bitcoin currently processes something like 5 transactions per second. VISA handles nearly 2000. There are plenty of examples of times when the system has been put under stress from higher than usual transaction rates and failed to scale well

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by No:1 Final Fantasy Fan » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:42 pm

ignition wrote:I've not looked into H&L in much detail, but just from a quick Google I think you would be paying higher fees than necessary with them. I hold 3 tacker funds with Vanguard directly and I think my total combined fees, inc. platform fee, only comes to 0.3%. By comparison H&L is 0.45%, so if I'm not mistaken then effectively H&L would cost you 50% more than Vanguard. Seems small at the start but can really add up when you factor compounding over a long period of time.

Hey thanks thats much appreciated! I'll look into switching if that % rate is still available.

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PostRe: The Money Thread...
by ignition » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:15 am

No:1 Final Fantasy Fan wrote:
ignition wrote:I've not looked into H&L in much detail, but just from a quick Google I think you would be paying higher fees than necessary with them. I hold 3 tacker funds with Vanguard directly and I think my total combined fees, inc. platform fee, only comes to 0.3%. By comparison H&L is 0.45%, so if I'm not mistaken then effectively H&L would cost you 50% more than Vanguard. Seems small at the start but can really add up when you factor compounding over a long period of time.

Hey thanks thats much appreciated! I'll look into switching if that % rate is still available.


No problem.

How low a % you pay will also depend on how much effort you're willing to put in to managing it over time. Essentially you pay slightly more in fees to make it more convenient/easier to manage. If you want true set-and-forget then either go for one of the LifeStrategy funds or the FTSE Global All Cap Index Fund.

Alternatively, if you're willing and prepared to put in about 20mins of effort each year or so, you can get 3 separate funds that are equivalent to the FTSE Global All Cap Index Fund, but by holding them separately it costs less in fees. In reality all this means is that every year or so you just need to pop in and rebalance if the market share proportions have skewed to any significant degree. This is particularly easy to do if you have a lump sum of savings or some spare cash to drop in and rebalance with in one hit, otherwise you just need to work out how to adjust the payments in over time to slowly get back to 'normal' over a few months or so.

For comparison (these figures include the 0.15% Vanguard platform fee):

- LifeStrategy100 = 0.38%
- FTSE Global All Cap Index Fund = 0.38%
- DIY 3 funds = 0.28%

So you can see there that the more 'convenient' options cost about 35% more in fees than the DIY approach.

The 3 DIY funds that are equivalent to the FTSE Global All Cap Index Fund are:

- Vanguard FTSE U.K. All Share Index Unit Trust (0.06% fee) [4%]
- Vanguard Emerging Markets Stock Index (0.23% fee) [11%]
- Vanguard FTSE Developed World ex-U.K. Equity Index (0.12% fee) [85%]

You pay into each of these according to the respective % of their current [global market share] - these are the numbers that can change over time depending on how different markets perform and thus dictate how you need to rebalance.

If that all sounds like too much effort then the other options are still better value than the H&L offering.

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