The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Tafdolphin » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:22 pm

Saint of Killers wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Saint of Killers wrote:And I'm saying that shouldn't come in to a discussion about how Epic are behaving.


Why on earth not? Valve are an inextricable part of the equation when said equation is binary.

Epic are a shitty corporation. Valve are a shittier corporation. Instinctively reacting with disdain when you're forced to buy from the less shitty of two corporations is odd to me.


Some of those people have legitimate issues (i.e. not omg only Valve should sell games!) with Epic's behaviour.


I've stated and agreed that people might have issues with Epic, but have also provided very legitimate reasons why Valve have, objectively I'd say, been the worse of the two companies. None of these were omg based.

If people have issues with Epic and not Valve then...I really don't know. They need to look harder at who they're buying from.

Epic could sign up exclusives without pissing most sane people off (see Supergiant's Hades), but in a couple of instances (Metro and Phoenix) they've opted to court controversy and annoy investors/backers and people with pre-orders.


Which in this case they have, hence my inability to understand the "I'm now buying it then!" post that kicked this all off!

Let me just...lay out my point as clearly as I can.

Valve have been the go-to storefront for PC games for years. When Steam began it was a weird little experiment from a company everyone loved as they made some of the best games on the planet and had a jolly little man as CEO. Over the years however, that Valve has morphed into something much worse, a giant corporation that actively refuses to moderate its own monster which is now filled with bloatware and hate speech.

Epic, another shitty company, come along and pay devs bucketloads of cash for exclusivity deals (not to mention a higher percentage of their games' take), a tactic they hope will tease people away from Steam as it is now the default. Epic was never a friendly fan favourite, and they've been exceedingly shitty of late with regards to IP laws and snatching games from Steam and Kickstarter with very little notice.

My point is that arbitrarily reacting to a game's exclusivity on the latter is thoughtless and reactionary. If you have issues with Epic, I fail to see how you can not have issues with Valve. They're both awful money factories. The only practical difference this exclusivity brings is that you need to install a new launcher (which, similar to Steam, scans other folders on your HDD). That's it.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by PsychicSykes » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:50 pm

What benefit do you think there is to a game being on the Epic Store as a consumer?

The Epic Store is trash.
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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Tafdolphin » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:54 pm

PsychicSykes wrote:What benefit do you think there is to a game being on the Epic Store as a consumer?


Why does there have to be a benefit? That's like asking why is it a benefit to me that the sofa I want is in DFS and not IKEA. They're storefronts. Before I would have to chose Valve through monopoly. Now I have to chose EPIC due to an exclusivity deal.

Nothing changes for the consumer (except, for me, a nice feeling that I'm not supporting Valve). For the devs, they get a boatload more money to keep making games and a higher return for every purchase made. For the market, Valve finally have a competitor and might actually start to improve their shitty store.

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by OrangeRKN » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:00 pm

Specifically to the Epic Store, developers taking a bigger share of the money should make more games profitable ventures, which should benefit consumers in giving them more games they might want to play.

In general, competition between storefronts should drive all of them to become easier to use and more featureful.

(I'm not sure how well the competition driving down prices argument works when that seems to happen fine with Steam anyway)

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by PsychicSykes » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:52 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
PsychicSykes wrote:What benefit do you think there is to a game being on the Epic Store as a consumer?


Why does there have to be a benefit? That's like asking why is it a benefit to me that the sofa I want is in DFS and not IKEA. They're storefronts. Before I would have to chose Valve through monopoly. Now I have to chose EPIC due to an exclusivity deal.

Nothing changes for the consumer (except, for me, a nice feeling that I'm not supporting Valve). For the devs, they get a boatload more money to keep making games and a higher return for every purchase made. For the market, Valve finally have a competitor and might actually start to improve their shitty store.

In your case, you mention not supporting Valve as the benefit when buying from Epic. For the majority of people, the Epic Store offers a much less appealling option. The Epic Games Store is objectively worse when compared to Steam, with no options for mod support, achievements, seeing what your friends have bought and are playing for profiles and more.

Your assertion that Steam is a monopoly is completely false too. Here's an image that gets posted a lot in these sorts of debates because it illustrates the points well.

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The "competition" that Epic is offering is the ability to only be able to buy a game from an objectively worse place, at a price that is solely set by them. This has led to players in several countries (China most notably) literally being unable to buy games.

Steam in their "monopoly" on the other hand, lets the creators and publishers sell keys anywhere they wish, actually allowing proper competition between themselves and other storefronts. And the best part is, since keys for Steam can be generated for free and Valve only takes a cut from games literally sold through the Steam client itself, these other storefronts or the makers themselves can get a better cut when people purchase the games away from Steam itself.

If you wanted to support games without giving Valve money, the option was and still is already there. And while it ain't perfect, it's still a lot better than Epic's pitiful offering.

The Epic Store is trash.
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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by OrangeRKN » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:58 pm

How does Steam stop someone from setting the price super high on steam itself to encourage everyone to buy from a different source where they get a better cut?

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Tafdolphin » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:20 pm

PsychicSykes wrote:Big post.


First off, that image is bobbins isn't it?

We're talking about competition for Steam here rather than the abstract idea of competition as a market driver. None of those sites are Valve's competition. Not a few of them are actually Steam key resellers which aren't competition more than they are subcontractors. Before Epic, none of those stores were trying to compete with Valve, they simply carved out their own piece of the ecosystem like tiny planets orbiting the star of Steam. Epic is the first real competition Valve have faced since the creation of Steam, and as any free-market capitalist would tell you, competition, real competition, always benefits the consumer.*

Now, regarding mods and achievements...that's a valid criticism of Epic's store. It's also apparently a pain to navigate and is fairly resource intensive. Without getting sarcastic...why does that ring a bell?** It's a new service and will no doubt improve but I will admit that for a certain subset of people, Epic's lack of support here might put them off purchasing an exclusive.

What worries me is the lack of thought behind instinctive 'Epic? strawberry float off' reactions though. It smacks of fanboyism, quite honestly. For the first time in a generation Valve has a reason to improve itself, to make Steam a safer, more inclusive and possibly more affordable place to be. Epic don't have carte blanche on their pricing as you suggest as, yes, they're in competition with Steam and competition drives consumer prices down, not up. Developers too have already reaped the benefits as Epic have sparked a price war on publisher percentages too, not to mention many smaller game devs being in-profit before release thanks to exclusivity deals. And to top it all off none of these exclusives are...exclusives. They're timed. If you really, really want those mods and achievements you have a choice: buy it now, or wait till it releases on Steam.

Valve have spent far too long being the sole masters of their domain. As this article sums up, it's about bloody time someone else came along.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/rami-ismail-interview

*strawberry float free-market capitalism
**Because this was exactly how Steam launched.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Meep » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:34 pm

People seem to be forgetting that Valve got where it is today by forcing you to buy certain games through steam. There was outrage at the time. I do not defend this practice but if it helps establish competitors then it may balance out in the long run.

Epic don't seem be anywhere near as good as GOG (blessed be GOG and its DRM free goodness, amen), but then neither is Steam (Valve officially abandoned any attempt at curation and now looking around the store feels like you're a hobo trying to pick salvage out of a rubbish dump).

My main gripe with Epic is their required online connectivity. Steam do this too but not to the same stasi-esque strictness. If I buy a single player game I do not expect to be barred from it because I had to the audacity to have an interruption to my broadband.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Qikz » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:28 pm

Meep wrote:People seem to be forgetting that Valve got where it is today by forcing you to buy certain games through steam. There was outrage at the time. I do not defend this practice but if it helps establish competitors then it may balance out in the long run.

Epic don't seem be anywhere near as good as GOG (blessed be GOG and its DRM free goodness, amen), but then neither is Steam (Valve officially abandoned any attempt at curation and now looking around the store feels like you're a hobo trying to pick salvage out of a rubbish dump).

My main gripe with Epic is their required online connectivity. Steam do this too but not to the same stasi-esque strictness. If I buy a single player game I do not expect to be barred from it because I had to the audacity to have an interruption to my broadband.


It's not a competitor. It's just another storefront with different exclusives. There's no "competition" here.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by PsychicSykes » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
PsychicSykes wrote:Big post.


First off, that image is bobbins isn't it?

We're talking about competition for Steam here rather than the abstract idea of competition as a market driver. None of those sites are Valve's competition. Not a few of them are actually Steam key resellers which aren't competition more than they are subcontractors. Before Epic, none of those stores were trying to compete with Valve, they simply carved out their own piece of the ecosystem like tiny planets orbiting the star of Steam. Epic is the first real competition Valve have faced since the creation of Steam, and as any free-market capitalist would tell you, competition, real competition, always benefits the consumer.*

Now, regarding mods and achievements...that's a valid criticism of Epic's store. It's also apparently a pain to navigate and is fairly resource intensive. Without getting sarcastic...why does that ring a bell?** It's a new service and will no doubt improve but I will admit that for a certain subset of people, Epic's lack of support here might put them off purchasing an exclusive.

What worries me is the lack of thought behind instinctive 'Epic? strawberry float off' reactions though. It smacks of fanboyism, quite honestly. For the first time in a generation Valve has a reason to improve itself, to make Steam a safer, more inclusive and possibly more affordable place to be. Epic don't have carte blanche on their pricing as you suggest as, yes, they're in competition with Steam and competition drives consumer prices down, not up. Developers too have already reaped the benefits as Epic have sparked a price war on publisher percentages too, not to mention many smaller game devs being in-profit before release thanks to exclusivity deals. And to top it all off none of these exclusives are...exclusives. They're timed. If you really, really want those mods and achievements you have a choice: buy it now, or wait till it releases on Steam.

Valve have spent far too long being the sole masters of their domain. As this article sums up, it's about bloody time someone else came along.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/rami-ismail-interview

*strawberry float free-market capitalism
**Because this was exactly how Steam launched.

No, it's not "bobbins." If I purchase a key from Humble, Steam gets no cut and loses out on that sale, so it is in both parties interests to compete for my money. It's the same as buying a game for a console and I doubt you'd argue there was a lack of competition or monopoly there.

Glad to see you agree that Epic's Store is dogshit as a program. Unfortunately I can't agree with your logic that because Steam wasn't great when it launched, Epic gets a free pass. Standards have changed since 2003 and with good reason. If I launched a car today and it came without a spare-tyre, electric windows and any way of listening to music, I'd be laughed out of town and the same applies to Epic. Same reason Nintendo got scorn for their meagre offering when it comes to online, except Nintendo aren't basing their entire philosophy around it like Epic are.

People aren't instinctively reacting to games being on Epic Store in a hostile manner and to try and paint that as the issue while throwing the word fanboy in there comes dangerously close to strawmanning. Nobody has complained about Hades being exclusive to Epic Store, for instance. Unlike Metro Exodus, Phoenix Point and The Outer Worlds, that game was never announced for Steam and therefore Epic aren't literally paying money to take something away. If Epic continue to fund original content in this manner, great. Given their balance of moneyhatted titles compared to original ones so far though, I have my doubts. (It's also worth mentioning in scenarios like Microsoft buying exclusivity to Tomb Raider a few years back, a similar reaction happened.)

Your argument that Epic existing will drive prices down baffles me. I don't know how a scenario where products aren't allowed to be sold elsewhere on a store that to my knowledge has never offered any type of sale is supposed to reduce prices. Could you expand on this?

The Epic Store is trash.
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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Tafdolphin » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:03 pm

Ok. I really disagree with everything you've said there. I made the points I wanted to make and you don't agree with me either. I don't think me expanding on anything is going to help here.

I think your arguments are reactionary and are not taking into account historical context. I think you're misrepresenting the current PC marketplace. We're not going to reach an accord on any of these so yeah. I'm out.

Outerworlds looks nice though, eh?

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Jenuall » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:40 pm

Epic should be receiving gooseberry fool for the state of their store/platform. Launching something this late in the game that lacks core features like cloud saves, offline play etc. is absolutely worthy of derision.

Locking games to their platform and providing no other mechanism for the developers to sell those games to the market is also a dick move. Steam allows developers to generate keys and distribute them how they see fit - other vendors can then set their price and sell them on to users in a transaction that is entirely independent of Valve. There is scope for competition in that environment. In Epic's world the only way to play a game is to buy it from them directly.

Valve are dicks and steam still has major problems, but Epics vision of the market (based on its current state) has as many demons as it does virtues.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Photek » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:56 pm

My one prevailing memory of Steam was that I had to install it to play Half Life 2. :x

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Cheeky Devlin » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:23 pm

So.... Outer Worlds looks pretty good.

I'm looking forward to playing that.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Jenuall » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:00 am

Yeah I'm really looking forward to this, getting good vibes from what has been revealed so far.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by PsychicSykes » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:20 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:Ok. I really disagree with everything you've said there. I made the points I wanted to make and you don't agree with me either. I don't think me expanding on anything is going to help here.

I think your arguments are reactionary and are not taking into account historical context. I think you're misrepresenting the current PC marketplace. We're not going to reach an accord on any of these so yeah. I'm out.

Outerworlds looks nice though, eh?

And yet my arguments are echoed elsewhere, even some in this thread, while you have decided yours aren't even worth continuing to debate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least we can agree on Outer Worlds looking decent. :lol:

It'll be interesting to see what sort of pricing they go for elsewhere when the exclusivity runs out.

The Epic Store is trash.
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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Tafdolphin » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:40 pm

Well, that's not true is it? I mean, I posted why I didn't want to continue and it has nothing to do with validity!

There's no need to get salty my dude. Agree to disagree.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by PsychicSykes » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:30 pm

I'm not salty, just disappointed as I was looking forward to further discussion. Apologies if it came across that way. If there's any further Epic Store talk it should probably be in a new thread anyway so fair enough.

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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by Monkey Man » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:47 am


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PostRe: The Outer Worlds (Obsidian) - PS4, X1, PC
by LewisD » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:44 am

Looks really cool!

Looks like a mash up of Fallout, Bioshock, Borderlands and KOTOR in a way.... And I don't mind that at all! :)

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