The Politics Thread 4

[Hypes]

Not bombing the place

Which isn't exactly working very well is it?

But bombing's likely to make it worse

[Moggy]

Not bombing the place

Which isn't exactly working very well is it?

But bombing's likely to make it worse

Is it?

I agree that the best solution would be troops (a coalition of Western and local forces so it doesn’t just look like a US invasion) on the ground keeping the peace and taking out Assad’s government. Invasions like that would also rely on air strikes and missiles though.

Doing nothing is a terrible option, we can see just how many people are dying or fleeing from the violence. We have sat around doing nothing for over half a decade now, waiting for it to sort itself out just isn’t working.

Air strikes alone are unlikely to topple the regime, but they can be used to take out Assad’s military capabilities or to at least slow them down a bit. It’s a not an ideal solution, but it seems a better option than just doing nothing and watching people die.

[Blue Eyes]

I get suspicious of people who say we should stay out of wars like this. I really think a lot of them just want us to let the brown people die.

[Hypes]

I get suspicious of people who want to bomb brown people because they don't like them

[Moggy]

I get suspicious of people who say we should stay out of wars like this. I really think a lot of them just want us to let the brown people die.

I don’t doubt that is true of some, but I don’t think that is the case for people on GR. Captain Red Dog and Hyperion are not racists, just hippies.

[Hypes]

I get suspicious of people who say we should stay out of wars like this. I really think a lot of them just want us to let the brown people die.

I don’t doubt that is true of some, but I don’t think that is the case for people on GR. Captain Red Dog and Hyperion are not racists, just hippies.

Hey, just because you and Blue Eyes are neo-hawks who want to escalate the situation with a view to bringing back colonialism

[Preezy]

I know it's illegal and frowned upon, but sending in special forces to assassinate Assad would be the best outcome. Where are your Sam Fishers and Mitch Rapps and John Clarks when you need them, Jeff?

[Moggy]

I get suspicious of people who say we should stay out of wars like this. I really think a lot of them just want us to let the brown people die.

I don’t doubt that is true of some, but I don’t think that is the case for people on GR. Captain Red Dog and Hyperion are not racists, just hippies.

Hey, just because you and Blue Eyes are neo-hawks who want to escalate the situation with a view to bringing back colonialism

Don’t lump me in with that West Ham scum.

I am not usually in favour of war/bombings, I just don’t see the situation in Syria getting any better until the rest of the world steps up and sorts it out. Sitting around and watching people die isn’t working, action needs to be taken.

[Lex-Man]

I get suspicious of people who say we should stay out of wars like this. I really think a lot of them just want us to let the brown people die.

I don’t doubt that is true of some, but I don’t think that is the case for people on GR. Captain Red Dog and Hyperion are not racists, just hippies.

Hey, just because you and Blue Eyes are neo-hawks who want to escalate the situation with a view to bringing back colonialism

Don’t lump me in with that West Ham scum.

I am not usually in favour of war/bombings, I just don’t see the situation in Syria getting any better until the rest of the world steps up and sorts it out. Sitting around and watching people die isn’t working, action needs to be taken.

The problem with the rest of the world getting involved is that it run the risk of escalating to a world conflict, especially as Russian are supporting Syria. The other issue is that we run the risk of creating another power vacuum for religious extremists taking over the area.

[<]:^D]

the most sensible sounding option ive read recently would be targeted strikes to completely eliminate Syria's airforce.
however one big problem with this is it risks killing Russian nationals who are apparently in the military bases in an advisory capacity.

[OrangeRKN]

Military intervention didn't bring peace and stability to Afghanistan. It didn't work in Iraq. It didn't work in Libya.

Military intervention does not appear to have made life in the UK, or the US, or France, safer.

We have no clear long term plan or commitment to military involvement.

Real peace comes through political dialogue. Being militarily involved and favouring one side other another reduces our capacity to act as objective mediator, and lessens our influence over the opposing side.

At the moment there is no sign of any political solution. I don't see how escalation of conflict brings one any closer.

The civilian situation in Syria is dire. We have a responsibility not to stand by and simply watch as civilians are killed. We should help with aid and with offering safe haven - either here in the UK or by working with other regional powers to offer refuge.

That won't stop the war, but it will save lives, and it will win hearts and minds. Dropping bombs from the sky has a historical tendency of doing the opposite.

[Nun]

I really just don't see how toppling Assad will improve people's lives in Syria. I can't think of a single occasion in recent memory where western intervention to topple a middle eastern leader has caused a functioning democracy to flourish happily afterwards. Destroying Libya just to kill Gaddafi caused the country to fracture into territories ruled by gangs and warlords while ordinary people and migrants who used to go to Libya for work now flood across the Mediterranean into Europe.

While it's true that Assad is probably not the nicest leader in the world to those who would seek to oppose him, when the people he's fighting against and suppressing are literally Islamic State, then in that case the biggest bully in the playground approach probably isn't the worst for the ordinary people of that country who just want to get on with their lives.

[<]:^D]

the one counter to that was the success of military intervention in Kosovo - i know thats not directly comparable to Syria, but neither are Libya/Afghanistan/Iraq
there are deeper parallels when you consider that conflict also included international war crimes.
the issue we have now is the whole world is watching someone get away with using chemical weapons against his own people - that is something i believe we cannot make peace with/act as objective mediators about.

[Moggy]

Military intervention didn't bring peace and stability to Afghanistan. It didn't work in Iraq. It didn't work in Libya.

Just picking out examples of where it didn’t work isn’t very helpful. Interventions worked for Kosovo, East Timor and Sierra Leone for instance.

One thing that we know doesn’t work for Syria is ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away. The civil war started in 2011 and Cameron asked Parliament for air strikes in 2013. Since then, how many tens of thousands have died? And how many more tens of thousands will die if we keep ignoring it?

[Preezy]

Kinda seems like Parliament should have backed Cameron back in 13, might have put an early end to the war.

Hindsight

[Moggy]

Kinda seems like Parliament should have backed Cameron back in 13, might have put an early end to the war.

Hindsight

While it might have been a disaster, we will obviously ever know, an Obama/Cameron led intervention does sound preferable to a Trump/May led intervention…

[Hexx]

If anyone every says to you something along the lines of "Corbyn's always called foreign policy right" - ask them about Kosovo and Milosevic.

[Preezy]

If anyone every says to you something along the lines of "Corbyn's always called foreign policy right" - ask them about Kosovo and Milosevic.

Save me the bother, Hexx - what did Comrade Jezza say about cuddly old Slobodan?

[Hexx]

If anyone every says to you something along the lines of "Corbyn's always called foreign policy right" - ask them about Kosovo and Milosevic.

Save me the bother, Hexx - what did Comrade Jezza say about cuddly old Slobodan?

Short story - defended Milosevic (up until his death) as a victim of US imperialism, and said genocide "never existed".

Standard black and white anti-western rhetoric he applies to every situation. Edit: It's not exactly "damning", but it's more counter to "he's always right" with "no, he always simplistically blames the west/the US/the UK"

You can Google it - but mostly you'll get overegged attacked pieces.

[OrangeRKN]

Military intervention didn't bring peace and stability to Afghanistan. It didn't work in Iraq. It didn't work in Libya.

Just picking out examples of where it didn’t work isn’t very helpful. Interventions worked for Kosovo, East Timor and Sierra Leone for instance.

I wasn't deliberately picking out examples of failed military intervention, my experience and knowledge of them is just skewed towards the more modern examples. I was only born in the 90s.

Certainly all are relevant to assessing the likelihood of military intervention being effective, but I don't think it's unfair to say the major examples from the last decade were all failures.