The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*

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Alvin Flummux
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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:50 am

To the point about Luke throwing the lightsaber away: This isn't the same Luke we last met in Return of the Jedi, this is a different man.

He is 30 years older in TFA/TLJ. As we come to know, he has experienced humiliation on a galactic scale, as well as incredibly difficult failures and loss on the most deeply personal and professional levels, too, in Ben Solo and in the struggle to restore the Jedi Order. All the while, he has been battling the constant temptations of the Dark Side.

He has grown, developed, come to new understandings about the Force, himself, the Jedi etc, and become someone new in the process. Long ago, he would have accepted his father's lightsaber with joy, but that was then.

We go into TLJ with our expectations set to RotJ, which is understandable as we are so familiar with him then, but it's also misguided, because time makes new people of us all. We must be willing for our expectations to be subverted.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:11 am

TLJ is a masterpiece of bad film making and storytelling - even if you ignore every single "Star Wars" element and view it as a standalone, completely detached movie.

It's just strawberry floating dire. There's certainly much much worse movies but few with this sort of budget.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Tafdolphin » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:23 am

Hexx wrote:TLJ is a masterpiece of bad film making and storytelling - even if you ignore every single "Star Wars" element and view it as a standalone, completely detached movie.

It's just strawberry floating dire. There's certainly much much worse movies but few with this sort of budget.


Cool.

EDIT: Addressing why I find this sort of response so frustrating is that this just isn't true. There are a whole bunch of people on here and elsewhere that loved the movie. I loved the way it looked, I loved the way it was shot, I loved what it was trying to say.

Saying it's objectively bad is nonsense. What does objectively bad even mean here? You can look at a film like The Room and say yes, this was badly made. Badly shot, badly acted, badly written. Objectively so: even those who like it like it because of of awfulness. But TLJ is not objectively bad in any sense. It can be seen as subjectively bad, sure. It's messy and it's different and it's often inconsistent and I do understand why people don't like it. But objectively, definitively bad as a piece of film making? No. Not even slightly.

Folks are allowed to say they didn't like it. What I hate is people telling those who did that they liked something objectively bad, and the implication that there is something wrong in doing so.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Jamo3103 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:27 am

Tafdolphin wrote:Just to touch on this: one thing I don't think the film did as well as it could've and is often missed is that it's a film about failure. Almost all of the main characters fail in their goals: Finn and Rose fail to disable the tracker, Poe fails to save the fleet, Rey fails both to get Luke off the island and to turn Ren. Even Luke failed to train Ben.

The point is that, as Yoda points out, failure is the best teacher. Finn gains appreciation for the Resistance, Rey gains a greater understanding of herself and the Force, Poe comes to understand what leadership is. Luke himself comes to realise he can't just ignore the consequences of his failure anymore.

This does get lost in the film itself however as it's nothing if not messy.


Yeah, I think this is where it could come into its own as the middle film in a trilogy. That is assuming that Ep 9 deals with their response to failure. As you say, it is a bit messy in the way it handles it which somewhat takes away from the overlying message of failure.

Alvin Flummux wrote:To the point about Luke throwing the lightsaber away: This isn't the same Luke we last met in Return of the Jedi, this is a different man.

He is 30 years older in TFA/TLJ. As we come to know, he has experienced humiliation on a galactic scale, as well as incredibly difficult failures and loss on the most deeply personal and professional levels, too, in Ben Solo and in the struggle to restore the Jedi Order. All the while, he has been battling the constant temptations of the Dark Side.

He has grown, developed, come to new understandings about the Force, himself, the Jedi etc, and become someone new in the process. Long ago, he would have accepted his father's lightsaber with joy, but that was then.

We go into TLJ with our expectations set to RotJ, which is understandable as we are so familiar with him then, but it's also misguided, because time makes new people of us all. We must be willing for our expectations to be subverted.


Whilst I see where you're coming from, the throwing it away just felt slapstick to me. Rejecting it, okay, but could he not have handed it back to Rey and told her to keep it? That it meant nothing to him anymore. I dunno, the throwing it just felt slapstick and comedic and completely took me out of the moment.

I appreciate that his character had changed due to everything that has happened but above all, it was the flashback scene that really didn't work for me. He fought to redeem his father but attempted to murder his nephew because of what he saw in his dreams? It just felt so off, he hadn't experienced that significant failure yet so why do that? I know it's sold as a moment of madness/weakness and a source of regret but it didn't work for me.

If you contrast his story arc with other Jedi's in canon that had gone into exile it doesn't work either. Yoda and Obi Wan hid from an empire that was at the peak of its power and ruled the galaxy, even then Obi Wan had a purpose (protecting and watching over Luke). Luke had an opportunity to stop the first order whilst the Republic had control over the galaxy yet he gave up immediately. To contrast with another character in the Disney canon, Kanan from Rebels, who survived Order 66 as a padawan, hid his Jedi powers but still took the fight to the Empire and trained a new Jedi because he realised it was his duty to pass on his knowledge. He had witnessed the whole Republic and Jedi order fall apart and was up against a far greater foe but he didn't let it beat him.

Ultimately it comes down to your own expectations I suppose and I do see why some people liked Luke's character development, it just didn't work for me.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Parksey » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:37 am

I think it's very simplistic to say that Luke went in to exile because of "bad dreams". I think they actually wrote his character pretty well.

Firstly, you have to accept that it was always going to be difficult to write Luke. He was the focal point of the movies for a lot of people, before the prequels shifted the series to be more about Anakin. But for the hardcore fans, who grew up with the original three, he was Star Wars. So people had their own ideas about what Luke was going to be like after all that time. The waters were also muddied by the (now discounted) EU doing something with his character already.

A lot of people say "TLJ doesn't fit Luke" or "he should have done this or this". My argument would be, if a character is well-written and rounded, there isn't necessarily a set part they have to take in a story. I've said it before in the GOT thread about how characters should shape the plot and not the plot shape the characters. A well-written character, you should get a feeling that, yeah, they could have ended up as this or that, but the decisions they make in a moment shift them down certain paths. These decisions need to be logical but a well-rounded character, I think, has quite a few different futures open to them.

And I think that's true of Luke. The end of ROTJ was obviously pretty open, and I think because of how he is in those three movies, they could have gone a few different ways.

He isn't a pure evil or pure good character. He's reckless and rash, as we see by him abandoning his Jedi training in an instant. He's doesn't always make the wisest of decisions (he goes to face Vader on Bespin thinking he's ready, ends up backed in a corner and falling down a bit). He's prone to anger, as we witness him quite violently slashing at Vader during the final duel, before regaining his senses and pulling back. He's hopeful, but that hope is tinged with fear. Fear for his friends leads him, wilfully, into the trap on Bespin. I can't remember the specifics either, but aren't the visions Yoda shows him basically about how strong his fears are and how they can rule him?

He's not just "the good guy". So I feel like expecting him to be this super powerful, lightsaber twirling warrior - sort of what we in the prequels at times - could have been possible, but I'd argue that it doesn't quite fit who we see in the original movies.

I see Luke in the TLJ as that flawed, rounded character with the personality traits I listed before. He had hope, bit it was tinged with fear. The same way his fears got to him in The Empire Strikes Back, they get to him again with Ben. I mention him being prone to recklessness and rash decisions, and the decision (or "almost-decision" as he doesn't really act on it) with Ben in his tent is made rashly and in an instant, with tragic consequences. At least, Luke's character in TLJ is informed by his own decision, not by plot magic.

It not only mirrors rash decisions he has made in the past (going to Bespin, going alone to the Death Star). Luke knows about the dangers of the dark side, due to his father, and also from being tempted himself (I wouldn't argue Luke is pure "light side" either, as he clearly also has anger and fear in him). His bad decision with the young Ben, in that moment, also sort of mirrors Anakin's, when faced with Windu and Palpatine. Anakin reacts, badly, and instantly regrets it. But the damage is done. That scene isn't written particularly well, as Anakin goes from "what have I done?!" to agreeing to team up with Palpatine and accepting an order to murder loads of kids in the space of about a minute or two. But still, the idea of this confliction culminating in an instant, reckless decision is something Skywalkers have previous on.

I'd argue that his exile was on half about some kind of self-inflicted punishment too. I got the sense that it was also as much about protecting the galaxy from himself. My memory is a little hazy as to where the flashbacks fit in the timeline but I also got the sense he disappeared in an attempt to save Ben from his own failings too. As I mentioned, Luke was perfect and has that little bit of dark in him too. He gave in to his fear right in front of his nephew. That decision was destructive enough even in a fraction of a second, so I felt he feared what would happened to the already-conflicted young Jedi if he was his teacher. There's also a sense that he creates Ben and the Knights of Ren, and the burning of the temple is, for Luke, a sign that his inner doctrine has failed.

It no surprise he is so bitter with the force, given what happened. It didn't do his Dad any favours, when it was paired with his own fear and trepidation it made him dangerous to Ben, and it was starting to making Ben dangerous by himself. Again, it's fear that is the driving force behind these three characters and pivotal moments of their life. Anakin is fearful of losing Padme and that this knowledge will die with Palpatine. Luke is fearful of the dark side taking hold of Ben. And Ben is fearful as he senses this looking figure of his Uncle over him (and later, has his own fear of not living up to the family name or having the convinction in his belief).

So that's why I think it's a much more complicated scene that "Ben having bad dreams". We even get the scene told from both perspectives, thus making it even more complicated. What drives the differences in those two scenes? The fear of the person telling it.

Likewise, the lightsaber throw at the start. I think it's misconstrued as a cheap joke and maybe that's a little in how it's shot and edited. I'd need to watch the scene again, but I remember seeing Luke's disgust and contempt for it. I think it's the fans who feel shocked that he's thrown away a fan relic; for Luke, his father's lightsaber is just going to be a painful reminder. Of his father's fear costing him and of his own. It'd basically symbolic of all those failings, of decisions that cost him and of a life he forcibly shut himself away from.

I honestly feel like criticism of that scene, comes from more the fans being against at the treatment of "Anakin's sacred lightsaber" than anything else. It fits with what we see from Luke at the start of the movie and the whole "reluctant mentor" role he plays. He really doesn't want Rey or the force there at all. Perhaps the scene would have been better had it not been the very first time we properly see Luke. It might have not shocked people as much had we seen how jaded he was, then later Rey tries to give him the lightsaber and he reacts badly. Again, TFA means we sort of had to deal with Rey's outstretched gift immediately. I see nothing wrong with his reaction to it though. It fits his TLJ character.

It's another long post from me, and you can tell that I actually think they got Luke spot on. Again, I think you could have gone a number of ways with him, but I think once they decided to do this with him, they didn't really do much wrong. It fits with aspects of the character that we have seen before, it fits with some of the series' key themes and I think his actions and decisions can be explained by his character, rather than just being a product of the plot.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Jamo3103 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:48 am

Tafdolphin wrote:EDIT: Addressing why I find this sort of response so frustrating is that this just isn't true. There are a whole bunch of people on here and elsewhere that loved the movie. I loved the way it looked, I loved the way it was shot, I loved what it was trying to say.

Saying it's objectively bad is nonsense. What does objectively bad even mean here? You can look at a film like The Room and say yes, this was badly made. Badly shot, badly acted, badly written. Objectively so: even those who like it like it because of of awfulness. But TLJ is not objectively bad in any sense. It can be seen as subjectively bad, sure. It's messy and it's different and it's often inconsistent and I do understand why people don't like it. But objectively, definitively bad as a piece of film making? No. Not even slightly.

Folks are allowed to say they didn't like it. What I hate is people telling those who did that they liked something objectively bad, and the implication that there is something wrong in doing so.


Absolutely agree with this, I don't consider TLJ a bad piece of film making at any level. Yes there are some messy, untidy parts of the plot and as I've already stated, there are parts of the story that didn't work for me but they're my opinion. No movie is going to 100% satisfy everyone and TLJ is clearly a film which has particularly divided the fanbase but it doesn't make it a bad film.

The prequels often get a lot of criticism and again, they're very messy and untidy films in places with some awful writing (Are you an angel :dread:) . Yet much of the world building, visual design and of course the music is wonderful and way beyond many other Sci-Fi films. Personally I love the prequels, even attack of the clones but I can fully appreciate what people don't like about them.

There's a lot of toxicity in the fanbase around TLJ and it's a shame because discussing it more openly is far more enjoyable. It's interesting for me, as someone who didn't particularly like the film, to see other people's perspectives on why they did like it so much.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:53 am

Tafdolphin wrote:
Hexx wrote:TLJ is a masterpiece of bad film making and storytelling - even if you ignore every single "Star Wars" element and view it as a standalone, completely detached movie.

It's just strawberry floating dire. There's certainly much much worse movies but few with this sort of budget.


Cool.

EDIT: Addressing why I find this sort of response so frustrating is that this just isn't true. There are a whole bunch of people on here and elsewhere that loved the movie. I loved the way it looked, I loved the way it was shot, I loved what it was trying to say.

Saying it's objectively bad is nonsense. What does objectively bad even mean here? You can look at a film like The Room and say yes, this was badly made. Badly shot, badly acted, badly written. Objectively so: even those who like it like it because it's awfulness. But TLJ is not objectively bad in any sense. It can be seen as subjectively bad, sure. It's messy and it's different and it's often inconsistent and I do understand why people don't like it.

But objectively, definitively bad as a piece of film making? No. Not even slightly.

Folks are allowed to say they didn't like it. What I hate is people telling those who did that they liked something objectively bad, and the implication that there is something wrong in doing so.


It's tonal all over the place - undercutting itself constantly with jokes that aren't even close to funny. I'm struggling to think of a single one that lands.
It constantly treats its audience as idiots.
It's plot is nonsensical - a cursory scrutiny look at it and it collapses at pretty much every stage. It's internal consistency leaving no narrative drive or engagement.
Plot points require every single person to constant grab and refuse to let go off the idiot ball to progress as the script demands.
There's a couple of pretty shots. Great. But the rest of of it is incredibly badly shot and boringly designed. (Space Casino could be anywhere in Vegas...hey was that a Tux and Bow Tie...the set design and general aesthetic in the film is woeful)
Music is utterly unremarkable. Hum one track from it (that wasn't from a previous film.)
Acting varies from [very] bad to average (and they've got a really good cast on average. So it's the direction and/or the script)

There's not a single aspect of it that isn't terrible on it's own merits - and that's before we get into it's legacy/pedgigree.

The be that can be said is it tries to do something different - but then strawberry floats it up an every opportunity. The phrase "reach exceeded their grasp" could be made for the makers of this film. (I love the fact you say "what it's trying to say" rather than "what it said". Sums the film up)

There's nothing wrong with liking bad films (you should see my monster film DVDs). You can have great fun with badly made stuff.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:58 am

You're right. Apart from the demonstrably bad plot, acting, direction, design and music . It's not an objectively bad film in any sense.

Edit - Oh Taf's Deleted/Edditted. This was to him basically going "Fine. You didn't like it, but it's not objectively bad" (can't remember exact words) so I don't look crazy

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Parksey » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:58 am

The thing is, if TLJ is an objectively bad piece of filmmaking, how do yoh account for it rating very highly with film critics? It got almost universal acclaim from the critics (currently 91% on Rotten Tomatoes for example) but a fan score of 44% that drastically contradicts this.

Generally it's the other way round for mainstream blockbusters like this. The prequels, for example, have their fans as films (I quite like them) but not as piece of filmmaking (they are horrendous).

Such a disconnection between critics and fans surely shows that most of the problems the fanbase have are with plot and story direction rather than cinematic execution?

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 am

Parksey wrote:The thing is, if TLJ is an objectively bad piece of filmmaking, how do yoh account for it rating very highly with film critics?


Can we just pretend here I go find the long list of films, TV shows, video games etc that all review really well at release/launch but with hindsight they go "What the hell were we thinking?"

Because we all know they exist and it feels like a waste of time to go find it.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Christopher » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:04 am

Cue
Mafro: See any Naughty Dog game

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Parksey » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:07 am

No, but I wasn't trying to argue that The Last Jedi is a good film here.

More that it is unquestionably, objectively bad. The critics have since had a moment of awakening, akin to everyone waking up from their Phantom Menace fever dream. The Last Jedi hasn't really had a critical backlash, it's come from the fans.

Again, that's not to say whether the film is ultimately good or bad. My argument was that if it was a terrible piece of filmaking, you wouldn't have such a disconnect between its near universal critical acclaim and the fan reaction.

That other films have been critical reappraised in years gone by is surely not exactly relevant? This idea of the film as a bad bit of filmmaking seems to stem from the fans (and almost the secondary criticism to their intial dislike of it) rather than the critics, who generally come down harder on these things.

I dunno, I think it's fine to dislike the film, but I don't think it's an objectively bad film. I feel like people have decided they don't like it, and then gone looking for ways it's bad and I think some of that retroactive reasoning - portraying the film as if it's absolutely sodden with cinematic sins - is a little bit revisionist.

I think it's fine not to like the plot and where they went with it. But I don't think it's objectively bad. I think people are spinning out some of their subjective feelings on to it.

It's weird, as I think last year, there was a sense that a lot of TLJ-lovers were guilty of saying that the haters should like it and that it is a great film and they are idiots. Whereas now it's flipped the other way, and those who don't like it are saying that fans of the film should treat it as some kind of guilty sin and that it's a film that doesn't work on any level.

In truth, it's probably something like a 7/10 film elevated or lowered by whether you personally like it or not.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Tafdolphin » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:11 am

So, this is going to seem like I'm just being contrary, but to demonstrate how none of this qualifies as objective:


Hexx wrote:It's tonal all over the place - undercutting itself constantly with jokes that aren't even close to funny. I'm struggling to think of a single one that lands.


I laughed at both the 'reach out' AND phone call gags.

It constantly treats its audience as idiots.


I don't really know what you're referring to here as... you don't refer to anything here.

It's plot is nonsensical - a cursory scrutiny look at it and it collapses at pretty much every stage. It's internal consistency leaving no narrative drive or engagement.


I think you're confusing plot with narrative. It's plot is super simple: The Resistance have to escape the First Order. Rey tries to convince Luke to enter the fight. Finn, Poe and Rose attempt to aid the escape of the fleet. It's narrative is, yes, messy but it all works towards a common theme that seeks to upend the tropes established by previous Star Wars films. If it does that successfully is, yes, debatable.

Plot points require every single person to constant grab and refuse to let go off the idiot ball to progress as the script demands.


As mentioned, one of the themes is failure. These are people in a desperate situation seeking desperately to get out of it. Any stupid decisions made are made naturally in keeping with this and are not forced in the slightest.

There's a couple of pretty shots. Great. But the rest of of it is incredibly badly shot and boringly designed. (Space Casino could be anywhere in Vegas...hey was that a Tux and Bow Tie...the set design and general aesthetic in the film is woeful)


As far as I'd want to go to call you objectively wrong, this is it. As I mentioned previously the film has a strict aesthetic theme revolving around the presence or lack of the colour red and the violence and aggression it symbolises. The throne room, Crait, the design of the new ships, the call-back to the TIE fighter duel from A New Hope*... it's a stunning looking film and far more visually distinct than the, yes, rather bland Force Awakens.

Music is utterly unremarkable. Hum one track from it (that wasn't from a previous film.)


Yeah, this is pretty true.

Acting varies from [very] bad to average (and they've got a really good cast on average. So it's the direction and/or the script)


Adam Driver superseded Darth Vader as the best Star Wars villain in this film, no small part due to his performance. His confrontation with Rey after the Throne room duel was incredible, emotions all over the shop. Not everyone is great: Boyega hams it up something rotten and Dern is wasted, but I'd say on average the acting was on a level with, or better than, TFA.

There's not a single aspect of it that isn't terrible on it's own merits - and that's before we get into it's legacy/pedgigree.


Cool.

The be that can be said is it tries to do something different - but then strawberry floats it up an every opportunity. The phrase "reach exceeded their grasp" could be made for the makers of this film. (I love the fact you say "what it's trying to say" rather than "what it said". Sums the film up)


Cool.

You didn't like it. We get it. But every problem you had with it... I didn't. Neither did a lot of people in here. I don't think it's a perfect film, but just as because I like it doesn't make it a great film, because you dislike it doesn't make it an objectively bad one either. To assume as much is pompous as strawberry float.

And this is what annoys me. For people who didn't like it it's not enough to simply say it's a bad film they disliked... it has to be THE WORST FILM WITH THIS BUDGET EVER MADE (spoiler: the strawberry floating Hobbit movies)! It can't just be messy and not what they wanted from a Star Wars film, it has to be NONSENSICAL. It's a hyperbolic rhetoric stemming from... strawberry float, I don't know. But it's incredibly patronising.

*Just as that duel was based on WWII footage of dogfighting, the bomber run in TLJ was based on WWII footage of...bombing runs.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:13 am

Parksey wrote:No, but I wasn't trying to argue that The Last Jedi is a good film here.

More that it is unquestionably, objectively bad. The critics have since had a moment of awakening, akin to everyone waking up from their Phantom Menace fever dream. The Last Jedi hasn't really had a critical backlash, it's come from the fans.

Again, that's not to say whether the film is ultimately good or bad. My argument was that if it was a terrible piece of filmaking, you wouldn't have such a disconnect between its near universal critical acclaim and the fan reaction.

That other films have been critical reappraised in years gone by is surely not exactly relevant? This idea of the film as a bad bit of filmmaking seems to stem from the fans (and almost the secondary criticism to their intial dislike of it) rather than the critics, who generally come down harder on these things.


I appreciate this is Wikipedia but

popping with exciting action sequences, sprinkled with good humor


(BBC Guy) "Rian Johnson ... has not ruined your Christmas with a turkey. His gift to you is a cracker, a blockbuster movie packed with invention, wit, and action galore


Alex Leadbeater of Screen Rant, who commented specifically that the death of Snoke was "the best movie twist in years"


These people are morons. :P

Again - you're trying to dismiss it as "from the fans". You can list the ways it's a terrible film without considering it's stablemates or expectations placed on it.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:52 am

Tafdolphin wrote:I laughed at both the 'reach out' AND phone call gags.


Reach out/slap I'll give you. That got a proper laugh

Phone Call....you're a moron. :wub:

Joking aside. Fine if you like it. But you've got to admit it's utterly out of place in the film (and makes no sense). One of the most memorable bits when I saw it was this...because there was just a stunned silence in the theater. Like..."Is this an Orange Phone Commercial still?" :slol:

I don't really know what you're referring to here as... you don't refer to anything here.


"They can hear us, but they're just not responding" springs immediately to mind as the most egregious example
We literally just saw it happen - it's a powerful scene after Leia's certainty - but the audience has to be told in case this film put them into a coma. Chance at a good moment....film undercuts it.

I think you're confusing plot with narrative. It's plot is super simple: The Resistance have to escape the First Order. Rey tries to convince Luke to enter the fight. Finn, Poe and Rose attempt to aid the escape of the fleet. It's narrative is, yes, messy but it all works towards a common theme that seeks to upend the tropes established by previous Star Wars films. If it does that successfully is, yes, debatable.


The Resistance fleet has to escape the First Order. One First Order Ship can track through Hyperspace (they know this) - they somehow only 1 SpaceUnit of SpaceFuel left (every ship in the fleet too)
The fleet doesn't split up because...?
Ships come and come from the Resistance fleet left right and center but no one else can because?
And so on...
Later on they decide to fly ships (that can be seen out the strawberry floating window of the first order bridge) off in "secret".
The CENTRAL plot is nonsense (that's before we address) if you spend 1 second thinking about it. And it then the film repeatedly highlights this just in case you missed it
It's a flimsy plot where you can see the hands of the writers trying to force nonsensical situations to try to manufacture tension.

As mentioned, one of the themes is failure. These are people in a desperate situation seeking desperately to get out of it. Any stupid decisions made are made naturally in keeping with this and are not forced in the slightest.


Without even thinking

Poe wasn't desperate when he killed everyone at the start - to be the hero. They had an escape plan, he pushed for glory - not for survival. There's no desperation there.
Kylo is killing the entire fleet. "Fall back we can't cover you". You what General Ginger? He's massacring them! No desperation there but it has to be done or the movie would be 20 minutes long.
Snoke was desperate when he fell for such an obvious ploy?
Or Phasma when she decided to execute them in the most OTT manner possible?
Or Poe when he decided the moment before certain death of the entire resistance is NOT the moment to push a suicide mission that's they're only hope to escape certain death. That's not desperation. That's blind hope. (It's almost like he'd read the script and knew another solution would come in 5 minted)#

I don't think one of the themes is failure btw :P

As far as I'd want to go to call you objectively wrong, this is it. As I mentioned previously the film has a strict aesthetic theme revolving around the presence or lack of the colour red and the violence and aggression it symbolises. The throne room, Crait, the design of the new ships, the call-back to the TIE fighter duel from A New Hope*... it's a stunning looking film and far more visually distinct than the, yes, rather bland Force Awakens.


I've avoided that comparison to try and show my objective problems with it. :P

And? Taking this at face value Red = Aggression isn't new or exciting? At the best it's tired. It doesn't even do anything interesting with the Red.

So you don't actually address the piss poor Casino section (one of the only two real new locations in the film) - and admit the film relies (largely) on others work/designs? It's pretty poor on it's own at adding anything to the world.

Adam Driver superseded Darth Vader as the best Star Wars villain in this film, no small part due to his performance. His confrontation with Rey after the Throne room duel was incredible, emotions all over the shop. Not everyone is great: Boyega hams it up something rotten and Dern is wasted, but I'd say on average the acting was on a level with, or better than, TFA
.

I've avoided that comparison to try and show my objective problems with it. :P

Every single actor in this film puts in a subpar performance based on what we know they're capable of (from any other film/etc not just Star Wars). Edit - Actually I think Hamil does pretty well. Which given he hated it shows what a professional he is :wub:

And if you think Kylo's an effective villain there might actually be no hope you [Love you really]. (He's potentially an interesting character...but he's a pathetic villain. No wonder (Episode IX trailer spoiler) They're bringing back the Emporer)

I think lots of people like it because they think (and to be fair they're right) it's subverse or upends expectations.
But they don't actually look at what it did. and a're happy for what it wasn't (e.g. you've resorted to comparisons to TFA :P)

I don't think it's the worst film ever - but it's about a 3 or 4/10.

[I actually thought the music was one of the most disappointing parts and that can't be blamed on RJ. Even the prequels, yes I'm reference SW films now :P, had some great music)

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Jenuall
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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Jenuall » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:11 am

"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!" :toot:

:shock:

Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:13 am

Oh sorry Jenny. I assumed that was upcoming/new releases

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Moggy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:16 am

Jenuall wrote:"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!" :toot:

:shock:

Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!


“I have not bothered watching the last few movies but I’m disgusted that people are talking about them over a year after the last movie was released!”

;)

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Jenuall » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:23 am

Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!" :toot:

:shock:

Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!


“I have not bothered watching the last few movies but I’m disgusted that people are talking about them over a year after the last movie was released!”

;)

To be fair Solo is less than a year old.

I've no issue with people talking about the movies, but if the thread is explicitly called *NO SPOILERS* then I don't think its to harsh to expect, y'know - no spoilers!

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Moggy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:32 am

Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!" :toot:

:shock:

Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!


“I have not bothered watching the last few movies but I’m disgusted that people are talking about them over a year after the last movie was released!”

;)

To be fair Solo is less than a year old.

I've no issue with people talking about the movies, but if the thread is explicitly called *NO SPOILERS* then I don't think its to harsh to expect, y'know - no spoilers!


I’m only kidding, I just wanted to break up the Taff/Hexx flirtfest.


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