The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*

[Moggy]

Yeah we were all crying out for a character called Sam to go on a journey to discover more about the midi-chlorians.....

I disagree - and I don't think people not crying out for something makes it nonviable.

This all begs the question: Outside the corporate sphere of profits, what is Star Wars for?

Is it just a vehicle for satisfying fan demands, and providing nostalgic fan service? Does a given plot point, character or overarching theme need to be fan approved before being entered into canon?

Is it its own thing, its own world, fan reaction be damned?

Because it completely ruins the mystique of the force.

A lot of the stuff within the prequels is just bad within the context of the prequels, but weighing the force down, one of the best concepts in Star Wars, with a scientific particle explanation was unnecessary and at a detriment to the original trilogy. The originals did a fine job of convening what the force was and what it meant to the viewer, there was no need to revisit it.

It was a stupid explanation to a question nobody was asking.

The Midichlorian concept doesn't remove from the Force's mystique - there are several layers to this onion, and that's just the top one. TCW delves a little further in, and again, doesn't ruin the mystique at all.

Other than yourself and George Lucas, nobody like the midi-chlorians.

What’s Star Wars for? Why does it have to be for anything? An entertaining story/movie can just be entertaining without the need for a reason.

Nothing has to be fan approved of course. A creator can do anything they want. But ignoring the vast vast majority of the fans is a sure fire way to cast your IP into irrelevance.

[Jenuall]

I never quite got the hate for midichlorians, like I don't really get the hate for lots of things that "fans" seem to kick up a fuss about with this franchise. Yes they're a bit silly, but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

[7256930752]

I never quite got the hate for midichlorians, like I don't really get the hate for lots of things that "fans" seem to kick up a fuss about with this franchise. Yes they're a bit silly, but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

You can reduce any fantasy film to it has magic,dinosaurs, flying people, talking space animals, etc. It's bad story telling to have needless exposition. Mostly it's because the scene involves some of the worst child acting in the history of cinema.

[Jenuall]

I never quite got the hate for midichlorians, like I don't really get the hate for lots of things that "fans" seem to kick up a fuss about with this franchise. Yes they're a bit silly, but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

You can reduce any fantasy film to it has magic,dinosaurs, flying people, talking space animals, etc. It's bad story telling to have needless exposition. Mostly it's because the scene involves some of the worst child acting in the history of cinema.

True, but what level of exposition is needless?

Revealing more layers or information about The Force shouldn't be too obscure of a scenario for an expanded franchise - we'd had 3 movies where between Yoda and Obi-Wan the audience had not really been told much about it so it was always a likely candidate for the prequels to spend some more time on, especially as this was going back to when the Jedi were still strong in number and ability.

We went from Obi Wan telling Luke that The Force is

"an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

To Qui Gon telling Anakin

"Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force... Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."

It wasn't exactly a massive change or leap in detail!

[Cheeky Devlin]

I never quite got the hate for midichlorians, like I don't really get the hate for lots of things that "fans" seem to kick up a fuss about with this franchise. Yes they're a bit silly, but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

You can reduce any fantasy film to it has magic,dinosaurs, flying people, talking space animals, etc. It's bad story telling to have needless exposition. Mostly it's because the scene involves some of the worst child acting in the history of cinema.

I still maintain that the worst part of TPM isn't Jar Jar, it's Jake Lloyd and his whooping, and yipping and stupid annoying face.

He was just a kid, so I don't blame him for it, but there were better child actors (Whatshisface from Sixth Sense was up for the role at some point too) around and he should never have been cast.

[Moggy]

I never quite got the hate for midichlorians, like I don't really get the hate for lots of things that "fans" seem to kick up a fuss about with this franchise. Yes they're a bit silly, but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

You can reduce any fantasy film to it has magic,dinosaurs, flying people, talking space animals, etc. It's bad story telling to have needless exposition. Mostly it's because the scene involves some of the worst child acting in the history of cinema.

I still maintain that the worst part of TPM isn't Jar Jar, it's Jake Lloyd and his whooping, and yipping and stupid annoying face.

He was just a kid, so I don't blame him for it, but there were better child actors (Whatshisface from Sixth Sense was up for the role at some point too) around and he should never have been cast.

Yeah but it worked out for him in the end.

[Cheeky Devlin]

Ironically I think he looks closer to Vader at the end of RoTJ than Hayden Christensen did.

[Jenuall]

All that pod racing obviously took its toll on the fella.

Young Anakin was a bit annoying but he's not even in the same league as Hayden.

[Tomous]

I never quite got the hate for midichlorians, like I don't really get the hate for lots of things that "fans" seem to kick up a fuss about with this franchise. Yes they're a bit silly, but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

You can reduce any fantasy film to it has magic,dinosaurs, flying people, talking space animals, etc. It's bad story telling to have needless exposition. Mostly it's because the scene involves some of the worst child acting in the history of cinema.

True, but what level of exposition is needless?

Revealing more layers or information about The Force shouldn't be too obscure of a scenario for an expanded franchise - we'd had 3 movies where between Yoda and Obi-Wan the audience had not really been told much about it so it was always a likely candidate for the prequels to spend some more time on, especially as this was going back to when the Jedi were still strong in number and ability.

We went from Obi Wan telling Luke that The Force is

"an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

To Qui Gon telling Anakin

"Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force... Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."

It wasn't exactly a massive change or leap in detail!

Can you really not see the difference

It retcons Jedis from spiritual warriors who are in tune with a mystical force to.....just some guys with bacteria swimming around inside them telling them what to do.

Explaining fantasy concepts with science is just such a big no no from a storytelling perspective. There's a reason it's normally avoided.

[Cheeky Devlin]

One of the things that baffles me in the prequels is the casting.

They had an amazing cast, full of really talented actors, but they were saddled with an awful director who hadn't directed since 1977 and some of the worst dialogue you've ever heard. The scripts were horrible.

Which is a shame because at it's core, there's nothing wrong with the story the prequels wanted to tell, it just utterly fumbled the execution.

[Hexx]

It was a farted out lazy explanation to go "OMG He's one of the most powerful Jedi ever! His counts over X,000! That's nicely as high a Yoda, and 100 above Bob from accounting"

[Jenuall]

I never quite got the hate for midichlorians, like I don't really get the hate for lots of things that "fans" seem to kick up a fuss about with this franchise. Yes they're a bit silly, but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

You can reduce any fantasy film to it has magic,dinosaurs, flying people, talking space animals, etc. It's bad story telling to have needless exposition. Mostly it's because the scene involves some of the worst child acting in the history of cinema.

True, but what level of exposition is needless?

Revealing more layers or information about The Force shouldn't be too obscure of a scenario for an expanded franchise - we'd had 3 movies where between Yoda and Obi-Wan the audience had not really been told much about it so it was always a likely candidate for the prequels to spend some more time on, especially as this was going back to when the Jedi were still strong in number and ability.

We went from Obi Wan telling Luke that The Force is

"an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

To Qui Gon telling Anakin

"Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force... Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."

It wasn't exactly a massive change or leap in detail!

Can you really not see the difference

It retcons Jedis from spiritual warriors who are in tune with a mystical force to.....just some guys with bacteria swimming around inside them telling them what to do.

Explaining fantasy concepts with science is just such a big no no from a storytelling perspective. There's a reason it's normally avoided.

Can you really not see the similarities?

Neither "explanation" really tells us anything and is essentially just nonsense. Did we need more expanded nonsense in the prequels? Possibly not but I still think there is such a culture of "anything new or different to the original trilogy" is bad among the fan base and that is the main reason why a fuss was kicked up (and why so many people gooseberry fool on things like TLJ daring to do something, anything, that is just a bit off piste for the series)

[Tomous]

I mean, you’re basically just writing off the whole fantasy genre if you’re waving away anything that isn’t realistic or based on real world physics as “nonsense”. The whole point of the genre is it captures the imagination and the possibilities excite you. That in itself is why the Star Wars was such a big hit. If Lucas had had the original cast talking about living organisms in people’s cells telling them what to do, the concept of the force would not have resonated with people in the same way at all.

[Jenuall]

That's not my point at all Nothing I have said is about writing off the fantasy genre or requiring realism!

I'm claiming that both the original and prequel descriptions of the force are fantastical, mysterious and leave room for people to project on to. Like I say the franchise seems to have accumulated a vast fan base that is aggressively dismissive of anything that dares to expand the universe beyond what was revealed in the original trilogy. Sometimes that is valid and useful, but often it's pointless, infuriating and (to use a pretty crap modern term, but one which fits) toxic.

Ultimately I don't really care that much either way!

[Tomous]

Well, you’re talking about Star Wars in pretty reductive terms by saying:

but it's a kids movie about strawberry floating space wizards, the whole concept is silly!

And we’re talking about the biggest sci fi films of all time here, no fantasy story has captured the public imagination in the same way since then. So it does kinda feel like you’re writing off fantasy films there!

But if you don’t agree those approaches fundamentally differ and make a big difference on the viewer impact then no point going round in circles.

[Jenuall]

But it IS a kids movie about space wizards!

At no point did I say that was a bad thing by the way! When people are debating about what is and is not "silly" about the franchise I don't think it's unfair to bring things back to the reality that, in the grand scheme of things, Star Wars is silly. Again, for the avoidance of doubt I am not saying that is a bad thing - often it's a strength of the franchise. But even within the fantasy genre I think we can agree surely that plenty of things lean more heavily towards being serious and considered than Star Wars does?

[Alvin Flummux]

Other than yourself and George Lucas, nobody likes the midi-chlorians.

I don't necessarily like them (though I do find the minor explorations of them thus far to be interesting), but I appreciate what George Lucas is trying to do with them - grounding his universe's least believable aspect, providing some depth to what otherwise could just as easily be (and indeed for decades was) unexplained space magic.

What’s Star Wars for? Why does it have to be for anything? An entertaining story/movie can just be entertaining without the need for a reason.

Maybe it was an ill conceived question, but it made sense to me to ask it at the time.

It seemed to me that the films serve a role in people's lives beyond being mere pieces of entertaining media, and these roles govern people's expectations of what the films should be, how they should play out.

Anyway, okay, nobody asked for a Sam character (although the continuing butthurtedness over the lost EU might indicate a clear appetite for exactly that), or a Midichlorian adventure or whatever. Fine. But then, we haven't had that film, we don't know the details of the adventure or the story, the scope or nature of the Whill plot, or the events ongoing around it all. All we have is a basic outline that doesn't serve as much of a guide.

I want to see that story expounded upon, honestly. I think Lucas should write his final trilogy as a big ass Legends novel.

Nothing has to be fan approved of course. A creator can do anything they want. But ignoring the vast vast majority of the fans is a sure fire way to cast your IP into irrelevance.

So how do you acknowledge the fans, while also telling your own distinctive story, on your own terms, unapologetically?

[Pedz]

Other than yourself and George Lucas, nobody likes the midi-chlorians.

I don't necessarily like them (though I do find the minor explorations of them thus far to be interesting), but I appreciate what George Lucas is trying to do with them - grounding his universe's least believable aspect, providing some depth to what otherwise could just as easily be (and indeed for decades was) unexplained space magic.

What’s Star Wars for? Why does it have to be for anything? An entertaining story/movie can just be entertaining without the need for a reason.

Maybe it was an ill conceived question, but it made sense to me to ask it at the time.

It seemed to me that the films serve a role in people's lives beyond being mere pieces of entertaining media, and these roles govern people's expectations of what the films should be, how they should play out.

Anyway, okay, nobody asked for a Sam character (although the continuing butthurtedness over the lost EU might indicate a clear appetite for exactly that), or a Midichlorian adventure or whatever. Fine. But then, we haven't had that film, we don't know the details of the adventure or the story, the scope or nature of the Whill plot, or the events ongoing around it all. All we have is a basic outline that doesn't serve as much of a guide.

I want to see that story expounded upon, honestly. I think Lucas should write his final trilogy as a big ass Legends novel.

Nothing has to be fan approved of course. A creator can do anything they want. But ignoring the vast vast majority of the fans is a sure fire way to cast your IP into irrelevance.

So how do you acknowledge the fans, while also telling your own distinctive story, on your own terms, unapologetically?

Do the story and not worry if you make dollar dollar?

[Alvin Flummux]

He did that already, but apparently that wasn't good enough.

[Jenuall]

Currently watching Rogue One for the first time. About half way through.

If this is supposed to be the good spin off movie then I don't think I'm even going to bother with Solo.