The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*

[Alvin Flummux]

"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!"



Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!

I enjoyed them both thoroughly, you just have to watch them.

Anyway, whenever we have a spoilery SW thread, it always dies a death.

[Jenuall]

Oh sorry Jenny. I assumed that was upcoming/new releases

In all honesty I'd had various elements of TLJ spoiled for me by now anyway - it is my own fault for being very slow at watching stuff!

Just this weekend I was having a conversation with a friend off the back of the new trailer and despite me saying very clearly "I have not seen TLJ yet" he still blabbed some key stuff!

"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!"



Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!

I enjoyed them both thoroughly, you just have to watch them.

Anyway, whenever we have a spoilery SW thread, it always dies a death.

They're both still on my list so I will definitely get to them, I just don't have much time for movies at the moment - I've been trying to catch up on the Marvel stuff for about 6 months and still I'm about 4 films behind!

"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!"



Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!

“I have not bothered watching the last few movies but I’m disgusted that people are talking about them over a year after the last movie was released!”

To be fair Solo is less than a year old.

I've no issue with people talking about the movies, but if the thread is explicitly called *NO SPOILERS* then I don't think its to harsh to expect, y'know - no spoilers!

I’m only kidding, I just wanted to break up the Taff/Hexx flirtfest.

Haha, good point - anything to break that gooseberry fool up!

[Poser]

"Ah, a no spoilers Star Wars thread, I'll be safe to come in here having not watched the last few movies!"



Oh well, sounds like TLJ and Solo were gooseberry fool anyway!

“I have not bothered watching the last few movies but I’m disgusted that people are talking about them over a year after the last movie was released!”

To be fair Solo is less than a year old.

I've no issue with people talking about the movies, but if the thread is explicitly called *NO SPOILERS* then I don't think its to harsh to expect, y'know - no spoilers!

I got railed on for making a similar request previously. No spoilers should mean no spoilers. Spoilery threads do exist:

t:star-wars-the-last-jedi-discussion-thread----spoilers-inside-?f=7

[The Watching Artist]

Cue
Mafro: See any Naughty Dog game

He's not exactly wrong.

Not really got the energy or time to get into another TLJ battle but I will say one thing....

"Godspeed"

[Pedz]

There were problems with the film, but the thing for me is I simply didn't enjoy and found it boring, tbh. I enjoyed TFA more. It was simply more enjoyable for me

[Hexx]

Cue
Mafro: See any Naughty Dog game

He's not exactly wrong.

Not really got the energy or time to get into another TLJ battle but I will say one thing....

"Godspeed"

Oh I forgot that

What's going to be amazing is the TLJ fanboys losing their gooseberry fool when/if RoS chucks all the gooseberry fool/conversational/things that made TLJ great [delete as you feel appropriate]

What's that? A you've got a problem with a film chucking out established narratives, directional of travel, storybeats and arcs?

[Call and Answer]

And if you think Kylo's an effective villain there might actually be no hope you [Love you really]. (He's potentially an interesting character...but he's a pathetic villain. No wonder (Episode IX trailer spoiler) They're bringing back the Emporer)

I liked Kylo Ren in both TFA and TLJ. It's a character I think of as "Anakin done properly" - I always felt like the prequels were trying to force audiences to like Anakin so the inevitable descent would be more impactful, but in trying to push that connection (alongside some abrupt and clumsily handled character developments) he appears hollow. With Ren, the films simply ask you to watch. Watch him fail. Watch the world laugh at him. Watch a scared confused young man, hurt by those he loved and lashing out in response. Adam Driver puts an awful lot of humanity into that role, and the emotional instability he displays makes him an excellent villain.

In my eyes anyhow.

[Mafro]

Cue
Mafro: See any Naughty Dog game

He's not exactly wrong.

Not really got the energy or time to get into another TLJ battle but I will say one thing....

"Godspeed"

Oh I forgot that

What's going to be amazing is the TLJ fanboys losing their gooseberry fool when/if RoS chucks all the gooseberry fool/conversational/things that made TLJ great [delete as you feel appropriate]

What's that? A you've got a problem with a film chucking out established narratives, directional of travel, storybeats and arcs?

That sounds like what you've done with TLJ tho lol

[DarkRula]

And Celebration has ended, with it next year heading to Anaheim.

It's been good to watch everything happening, and a lot of great stuff came from it. Lots of community spirit on show, and you can tell that everyone loves it.

I still want to go to one sometime, but Anaheim likely isn't seeing me there.

[Alvin Flummux]

Which Anaheim?

[Victor Mildew]

Aneheim Skywalker

[DarkRula]

California. Where the Disneyland and Galaxy's Edge are.

[LewisD]

California. Where the Disneyland and Galaxy's Edge Mighty Ducks are

Fixed that for you mate.
Y'all acting like Gordon Bombay never existed... Jesus Christ.

[DarkRula]

I wasn't thinking about the sighseeing opportunities or the history, just the Star Wars.

[The Watching Artist]

It's a character I think of as "Anakin done properly"

Not sure I really agree here but I get your point. Anakin is someone trying to not succumb to his aggressive urges. But is someone plagued by a fear of loss and his inability to control the destinies of those things. His arrogance is also fueled by those around him telling him he is special, his talents far exceed his maturity. He gradually becomes lost as a Jedi as he repeatedly fails to let go of his possessions and the fear of loosing them eventually destroys him. Its still all done it prequel clumsiness but there is still a lot going on actually, oh and if you ever watch The Clone Wars TV series you'll discover his controlling nature also informs his political ideas. And what is it at the end which redeems him in RotJ? His love for and fear of loosing his son.

Kylo on the other hand.... well he is actually the other way round. He is a someone trying very hard to be the bad guy. Fighting against the urge to do the right thing. It's actually quite fascinating and probably the most interesting thing about TFA. However his character (for me anyway) has a massive hole in it. In that I simply don't understand why he is motivated to do this and without that he comes off as a moody teenager just rebelling against what he is told to do.

Adam Driver is by a country mile the best of the new bunch though. Credit to him because otherwise the part would have fallen on its arse.

"Godspeed"

Oh I forgot that

It's a small thing (that actually is a pretty big thing) that I dont think gets mentioned nearly enough. my penis

[Call and Answer]

However his character (for me anyway) has a massive hole in it. In that I simply don't understand why he is motivated to do this and without that he comes off as a moody teenager just rebelling against what he is told to do.

I think this specifically is why I compare Anakin and Kylo, they're both moody brats. Fear of their abilities and their place in the world drive both characters, and both respond by lashing out at the hands trying to guide them. I read both turning to the dark side as fairly explicit representations of a teenage goth phase, with all that angst and "you don't understand me" rebellion.

Adam Driver is by a country mile the best of the new bunch though. Credit to him because otherwise the part would have fallen on its arse.

Very much agree, which is why for me the similarly structured role of Anakin in the prequel films fell apart with the less capable Hayden Christiansen at the helm.

[The Watching Artist]

However his character (for me anyway) has a massive hole in it. In that I simply don't understand why he is motivated to do this and without that he comes off as a moody teenager just rebelling against what he is told to do.

I think this specifically is why I compare Anakin and Kylo, they're both moody brats. Fear of their abilities and their place in the world drive both characters, and both respond by lashing out at the hands trying to guide them. I read both turning to the dark side as fairly explicit representations of a teenage goth phase, with all that angst and "you don't understand me" rebellion.

Adam Driver is by a country mile the best of the new bunch though. Credit to him because otherwise the part would have fallen on its arse.

Very much agree, which is why for me the similarly structured role of Anakin in the prequel films fell apart with the less capable Hayden Christiansen at the helm.

But you've glossed over the points I made about Anakin. Those are events that are not specific to being a moody teenager, the desire to control/obsess/save loved ones could be at any age. An example- I've recently watched Luther and a central part of his character is dealing with a relationship he cant have. He goes into rages and displays obsessive behaviors towards his ex. He is about 40. Seeking revenge on those who killed his Mother isn't a teenage specific trait either. However I don't think you could stick Idris Elba in AotC and suddenly it would work. I'm not saying HC was great but the way the Padme/Anakin relationship was written was so strawberry floating dire that you could put anyone in that role and it would have been doomed.* But it is at least a clear motivation for the character. He wants to do good because he loves someone and thinks he should be powerful enough to do that. Kylo though.... he wants to be bad because? Because he is teenager?

*a quick thought on what I'd change. Padme would be a little younger and Anakin a little older in TPM. This to avoid the dodgy age stuff going on. Padme would not be in charge on Naboo but instead her older sister/mother. Said sister/mother dies near the end of the film and Padme is next in line. Anakin and Padme spend much of the film bonding as kids would do. Maybe young Anakin even helps protect her during the battles. Anakin witnesses the grief Padme goes through. In AotC Anakin and Padme are in a relationship from the start. They have seen each other on and off growing up in between his training and her political duties but this is first time that they cross over. Anakins Mother still dies and he still flips out but because of her own experience and that they are already together it helps them bond and she tries to help him through it. Anakin even says that he wished as a kid he could have helped Padmes Mother/sister. That despite being "the chosen one" he seems to be incapable of helping the ones he cares about. Still probably bollocks but just a thought. The way AotC works as it is is bizarre. Anakin wants to pork Padme. She doesn't want to be porked. He keeps telling her he wants to pork her and shows off his mad apple skills. He butchers a tribe of aliens including the woman and children. THEY PORK. Its strawberry floated up man. No actor is saving that. No one.

Oh and he still says "are you an angel?" but he is talking to a tiny C3PO ontop of a christmas tree

[Call and Answer]

But you've glossed over the points I made about Anakin.

Apologies for the glossy reply earlier, I was on my lunch break and thought I could knock out a quick one. Ahem.

Those are events that are not specific to being a moody teenager, the desire to control/obsess/save loved ones could be at any age.

I agree, which is why I didn't identify that desire as being specifically teenage. I spoke more generally about the fear both characters have about their places in the world, a common experience through teenage years, and that they respond by lashing out against guiding forces (alternatively, against the norm/what came before to stand out. Alternatively alternatively, rebelling against your parents because they just don't get you, man).

But it is at least a clear motivation for the character. He wants to do good because he loves someone and thinks he should be powerful enough to do that. Kylo though.... he wants to be bad because? Because he is teenager?

I touched upon it in my initial post, but for me the reasons are twofold; he feels betrayed by those he loved (at Luke because of his failure in training him, and at Han and Leia for putting him in Luke's care), and that he feels unable to live up to his parents and uncle's legacies. He feels the world expects something from him, when he hasn't even figured out who he is. He's alienated and turns to a source that says "it's OK, you're not wrong, they're wrong". It's targeted radicalisation of a vulnerable person, same as the young Western folk who decided to go fight and die for ISIS. And that vulnerability of his sense of self is most common amongst teenagers.

---

I haven't seen The Clone Wars or any additional material featuring Anakin so I don't really have a sense of him beyond the prequels, but as presented there in the primary text he is a bratty teenager. Lines like "from my point of view the Jedi are evil" are pure foot stomping petulance. It's not even that the idea behind that line is necessarily wrong or that there isn't a debate to be had on Jedi ethics, it's that the speaker doesn't care about that; it just reads as contrariansm for the sake of winding up the other party.

Not that having characters act like that is an inherently bad choice, it can be interesting to explore. The difference is how the surrounding film treats those characters. Anakin is presented as doing the right thing because his love for Padme is so strong (an equally naive starry eyed take), so you should inherently root for him despite him being a dick. Kylo is not lauded by the films, he's looked down on, and it encourages the audience to pity him which ultimately (I think) leads to a genuine care for the character.

I never said Anakin is a bad character, or even that the basic story beats he goes through in the prequels are bad. He is poorly realised however, and I think Kylo is a far better version of that basic role (given the structural similarities they share). Anakin done properly.

[Alvin Flummux]

Anakin in the Clone Wars is a more nuanced character, and you get a much better feel for his descent towards the dark side, but where they left off at the close of season 6 still feels like a bit of a leap to where he is in RotS. This is, I feel, because the original plan was to have 8 seasons, and the last couple would really see him spiral down. That said, I'm confident/hopeful that the upcoming season 7 (it's not likely that there'll be more seasons made, this is the final season) will address that issue.

Clone Wars is worth the watch, for Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Hondo, Rex and so much more.

twitter.com/AdamLanceGarcia/status/1118282653982232576

[Preezy]

I still haven't got round to watching the trailer, I've seen the thumbnail of Rey with her massive forehead and vapid "focus" expression and just think....meh. They made such a mess of TLJ, and I still haven't seen (or intend to see Solo).

I just don't think I'm arsed about Star Wars anymore