The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*

[Captain Kinopio]

It's not that difficult when you come to the realisation that almost all the Star Wars films are bad.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

We still don't know what Finn wanted to tell Rey

[7256930752]

It's not that difficult when you come to the realisation that almost all the Star Wars films are bad.

It is when one is heralded as the pinnacle of sci-fi.

[Jenuall]

I get people not liking TRoS but I don't understand how anyone can think this yet still think TLJ is not only good but one of the best Star Wars films. I know it became 'internet cool' to like it but it has all the same problems.

What? TLJ and TRoS are so completely different that this comment makes zero sense. I love TLJ but can at least comprehend the things that people don't like about it even whilst I strongly disagree with them.

The problems that TRoS has are so fundamentally different - it's simply a horribly put together movie. From plot to dialogue, characterisation to basic plausibility, nothing about it works. It's supposed to be the culmination of 40 odd years worth of story but it builds on nothing, pays off nothing and wastes every possible opportunity to do something good or interesting with these characters.

Jedi may not be what some people wanted but at the very least it's a competently put together movie!

[7256930752]

I get people not liking TRoS but I don't understand how anyone can think this yet still think TLJ is not only good but one of the best Star Wars films. I know it became 'internet cool' to like it but it has all the same problems.

What? TLJ and TRoS are so completely different that this comment makes zero sense. I love TLJ but can at least comprehend the things that people don't like about it even whilst I strongly disagree with them.

The problems that TRoS has are so fundamentally different - it's simply a horribly put together movie. From plot to dialogue, characterisation to basic plausibility, nothing about it works. It's supposed to be the culmination of 40 odd years worth of story but it builds on nothing, pays off nothing and wastes every possible opportunity to do something good or interesting with these characters.

Jedi may not be what some people wanted but at the very least it's a competently put together movie!

Off the top of my head:

Plot - Canto Blight arc, Rose stopping Finn, Poe mutiny, Snoke
Dialogue - Mum joke, feel the force,
Characterisation - Luke's character overhaul
Plausibility - Leah flying, BB8 suddenly being the size of an AT-ST 'head', the light speed jump

[Alvin Flummux]

Can't let yourself enjoy anything, can you?

[7256930752]

Can't let yourself enjoy anything, can you?

What?

[Alvin Flummux]

Can't let yourself enjoy anything, can you?

What?

TLJ works. It's that simple. Johnson knows storytelling and he knows Star Wars and his is the best of the sequels.

Just let yourself enjoy it.

[Captain Kinopio]

Which one is heralded as the pinnacle of Sci Fi, and by who?

Are they even Sci-Fi films?

They’re just Space Westerns aren’t they?

[7256930752]

Can't let yourself enjoy anything, can you?

What?

TLJ works. It's that simple. Johnson knows storytelling and he knows Star Wars and his is the best of the sequels.

Just let yourself enjoy it.

Ok.

[7256930752]

Which one is heralded as the pinnacle of Sci Fi, and by who?

Are they even Sci-Fi films?

They’re just Space Westerns aren’t they?

Probably Taf to be honest.

I don't know, is Space Western a genre?

[Moggy]

Internet cool

[Mafro]

Internet cool

yeah

[Peter Crisp]

We still don't know what Finn wanted to tell Rey

That she thinks Star Trek is better most likely.

Is Finn the lady? I can't remember .

[LewisD]

We still don't know what Finn wanted to tell Rey

"Here love, I wanna smash your back doors in and get BB-8 to film it!"

[Jenuall]

I get people not liking TRoS but I don't understand how anyone can think this yet still think TLJ is not only good but one of the best Star Wars films. I know it became 'internet cool' to like it but it has all the same problems.

What? TLJ and TRoS are so completely different that this comment makes zero sense. I love TLJ but can at least comprehend the things that people don't like about it even whilst I strongly disagree with them.

The problems that TRoS has are so fundamentally different - it's simply a horribly put together movie. From plot to dialogue, characterisation to basic plausibility, nothing about it works. It's supposed to be the culmination of 40 odd years worth of story but it builds on nothing, pays off nothing and wastes every possible opportunity to do something good or interesting with these characters.

Jedi may not be what some people wanted but at the very least it's a competently put together movie!

Off the top of my head:

Plot - Canto Blight arc, Rose stopping Finn, Poe mutiny, Snoke
Dialogue - Mum joke, feel the force,
Characterisation - Luke's character overhaul
Plausibility - Leah flying, BB8 suddenly being the size of an AT-ST 'head', the light speed jump

I have no problem with Canto Bight, is it the greatest sequence in SW history? Definitely not, but it works within the context of the scenario established, unlike mecha-Palpatine, magic knives all, "sorry I can't translate the sith code for you so we have to reboot my memory even though there are a million simpler ways to solve the problem" and all the other bullshit we get from TRoS!

Rose stopping Finn? At the start when he tries to desert the rebels resistance? What's wrong with that? He's not the hero people want him to be, he doesn't want to die for a cause that he's not bought into, Rose is loyal to her core and just lost her sister to the empire, of course she's going to stop him running away!

Poe is established as a hot head, he thinks he knows best, has seen that the resistance have just been decimated by the first order attack on their base and during the massively failed bombing run. Add to that he's lost his leader in Leia and sees her replaced with someone he doesn't know or trust and who seemingly has no plan for what to do - how does him taking matters into his own hands (along with others who agree with him) and trying to rescue the situation not make sense from the perspective of his character?

Snoke? Literally have no idea what the problem is here plot wise?

Dialogue? I like the mum joke! It works well enough, is in line with the established character of Poe (practically his first lines when introduced in TFA are to take the piss out of Kylo's voice FFS!) and serves its purpose - to piss of Huxx and distract him.

Luke. I still have zero understanding of people's problem with how he was handled in this! What exactly is wrong? The guy has gone hermit yes but it's very well articulated why and the film takes him through a full arc of development relating to it. Also it's TFA that establishes the idea that Luke has given up on helping the resistance and dicked off to an island hidden away from everyone what was the TLJ supposed to do, have Rey turn up and Luke go "oh gooseberry fool, you guys need me!? I never knew! I had no reason to disappear and just hide here whilst you all died so now that you've come to get me I'll be right along to help!"

Yep Super Leia is gooseberry fool, no problems with that one - I don't think it's necessarily implausible though, SW has established elsewhere that force users can survive in space so it's not completely insane. The BB8 AT-ST scene is equally janky yep, but that's pretty low level visual stuff compared to the fact the core of TRoS doesn't fundamentally make any sense, whatsoever - I'll take a wonky size droid over a hidden super army of death Star destroyers that have been built in secret for 30 years any day!

[Dowbocop]

Which one is heralded as the pinnacle of Sci Fi, and by who?

Are they even Sci-Fi films?

They’re just Space Westerns aren’t they?

Probably Taf to be honest.

I don't know, is Space Western a genre?

I'm certainly no literary expert, but I tend to think that "proper" science fiction has to have at least some link to the time it was written and our race of humans on this planet. That's not a criticism of the quality of any works that exclusively feature non Sol System humanoids (perhaps some existing a long time ago in a galaxy far far away!) It's just that without the link to our world and time there's no logical extrapolation from the science of today, so it isn't really speculative "science" fiction or an alternative history, it's a story with spaceships and laser guns.

Star Wars both fits and doesn't fit both the sci-fi and fantasy stereotypes. You shouldn't have spaceships in fantasy, and you shouldn't have wizards in sci-fi. Space Opera is definitely a term that's been used to describe Star Wars, and I think that's probably its most apt genre, but calling it science fiction or fantasy (or both) is not entirely unreasonable.

In popular culture though it's thought of as science fiction, and ESB is widely thought of as one of the best films ever made. The IMDB top 250 (as a well-known but flawed yardstick) has ESB at 14 and ANH at 25. The Matrix is just below Empire, and the only speculative fiction films above them are Inception and The Dark Knight. None of these are comparable to Star Wars even though they are in the same broad genre net. Basically two of the original trilogy are regarded as the best films with spaceships in them ever made even after forty years of trying to better them, so I would say that puts them at the pinnacle of their field!

[Peter Crisp]

Space Western seems ok to me.
Battlestar Galactica is pretty much just a WW2 aircraft carrier film in space and did a good job of that premise.

I see no problem as space is just a setting for the story and they can all have obvious inspirations from earlier works.

[Alvin Flummux]

twitter.com/starwars/status/1257339659606208512

Leslye Headland is an American playwright, screenwriter, and director. She is known for the play and 2012 film Bachelorette and 2015 film Sleeping with Other People. She co-created the Netflix series Russian Doll, along with Natasha Lyonne and Amy Poehler.

[Outrunner]

I get that people like TLJ, however, for me it just didn't work. And yes, I can let myself enjoy things, despite being underwhelmed by TFA I still got on board the hype train and went to the midnight showing. And came away disappointed. And I watched it again, hoping that maybe I'd change my mind. Some of my issues.

Canto Bight just seemed filler to me. And it's a plot that doesn't go anywhere

Poe is a hothead, sure, but his actions at the start of the film wipe out much of the the rebels fighting force but there's no real consequence, he's allowed to do his own thing and basically mutiny

Which he wouldn't have had to do if Holdo had explained her plan. It seems the only reason for her not to was to set up Poe as hotheaded rebel who don't play by no rules

Snoke is built up as a mystery in TFA, as a throw away character in TLJ. This isn't just an issue with TLJ of course, both writer/directors seem intent on throwing out, ignoring or rewriting the films to fit their own vision.

Dialogue - It's never been a strong suite of the Star Wars films but mum jokes?

I hated hyperspace skipping. But then I also hated hyperspace ramming

Luke - my main issue with Luke isn't that he's gone hermit, its the why behind it. In ROTJ he was willing to try and find redemption for his father. His father who, amongst his many war crimes, killed children. His father that spent years, decades implementing the Emperors will, enacting genocide across the galaxy. I don't buy that decades later Luke contemplates killing a boy in his sleep because he senses darkness in him. He forgives a war criminal with the blood of millions on his hands but contemplates murdering a boy because he might do something bad?

I'm not about to defend The Rise of Skywalker or any of the trilogy, none of the films were great. The problem is they didn't have someone overseeing the whole thing. It tried to be a fan service, then threw all that out of the window to be something new then threw that out of the window to be a fan service again. And what we got was a hot mess. They should have had one writer/director through it all, at the very least it would have made for a more consistent trilogy.