The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*

[Alvin Flummux]

Canto Bight just seemed filler to me. And it's a plot that doesn't go anywhere

The group's failure to bring in their target leads them to DJ, who shows Finn what he's likely to become in a few years' time if he follows his current trajectory out of the Resistance. This leads to their betrayal at DJ's hands, to his final confrontation with Phasma, to Crait, his attempted act of self sacrifice, and his transformation from cowardly deserter to actual Resistance hero.

Canto Bight also shows that the Resistance, despite its isolation, is spoken of in hushed tones across the galaxy, even under the noses of the arms dealers supplying the Republic and First Order.

Poe is a hothead, sure, but his actions at the start of the film wipe out much of the the rebels fighting force but there's no real consequence, he's allowed to do his own thing and basically mutiny

Which he wouldn't have had to do if Holdo had explained her plan. It seems the only reason for her not to was to set up Poe as hotheaded rebel who don't play by no rules

Getting demoted for his insubordination, and later shot by Leia, isn't exactly nothing.

Holdo didn't explain her plan because look what happened when he did find out - he broadcast it on an unsecured line to Finn, Rose and DJ. Then it all went to gooseberry fool, because of his impulsiveness. He learned a hard lesson that day.

Snoke is built up as a mystery in TFA, as a throw away character in TLJ. This isn't just an issue with TLJ of course, both writer/directors seem intent on throwing out, ignoring or rewriting the films to fit their own vision.

Seems to me that Abrams probably had the idea in his head for Snoke from the TFA days, because in an interview not long ago, he said that when he watched TLJ, he could see that his vision hadn't been overwritten, that he could work with what Johnson set up.

Luke - my main issue with Luke isn't that he's gone hermit, its the why behind it. In ROTJ he was willing to try and find redemption for his father. His father who, amongst his many war crimes, killed children. His father that spent years, decades implementing the Emperors will, enacting genocide across the galaxy. I don't buy that decades later Luke contemplates killing a boy in his sleep because he senses darkness in him. He forgives a war criminal with the blood of millions on his hands but contemplates murdering a boy because he might do something bad?

Fighting the Dark Side doesn't stop when you save your dad's soul and defeat the Empire - it's a lifelong struggle all Jedi must grapple with.

Luke had a dark moment of weakness, and it came when he sensed just how far gone Ben was, because, unbeknownst to everyone, "Snoke" had been whispering in his mind for many years (possibly since he was born); decades was spent molding and influencing and corrupting him.

Look at what happened to Anakin, with Palpatine's informal mentorship, his influence seeping into his head from the Naboo incident to the close of the Clone Wars. Now imagine that, but only in your head, and for many, many more years than Anakin had to deal with it.

ANYWAY

The final episode of the Clone Wars was released today, and it's phenomenal. I'll have to rewatch this final arc all together at the weekend to get the full effect. The epilogue is just

[Moggy]

Which he wouldn't have had to do if Holdo had explained her plan. It seems the only reason for her not to was to set up Poe as hotheaded rebel who don't play by no rules

Holdo not telling Poe her plan is probably the most realistic thing in any of the Star Wars. Because commanding officers do not have to explain their plans to gobby subordinates.

[7256930752]

I get people not liking TRoS but I don't understand how anyone can think this yet still think TLJ is not only good but one of the best Star Wars films. I know it became 'internet cool' to like it but it has all the same problems.

What? TLJ and TRoS are so completely different that this comment makes zero sense. I love TLJ but can at least comprehend the things that people don't like about it even whilst I strongly disagree with them.

The problems that TRoS has are so fundamentally different - it's simply a horribly put together movie. From plot to dialogue, characterisation to basic plausibility, nothing about it works. It's supposed to be the culmination of 40 odd years worth of story but it builds on nothing, pays off nothing and wastes every possible opportunity to do something good or interesting with these characters.

Jedi may not be what some people wanted but at the very least it's a competently put together movie!

Off the top of my head:

Plot - Canto Blight arc, Rose stopping Finn, Poe mutiny, Snoke
Dialogue - Mum joke, feel the force,
Characterisation - Luke's character overhaul
Plausibility - Leah flying, BB8 suddenly being the size of an AT-ST 'head', the light speed jump

I have no problem with Canto Bight, is it the greatest sequence in SW history? Definitely not, but it works within the context of the scenario established, unlike mecha-Palpatine, magic knives all, "sorry I can't translate the sith code for you so we have to reboot my memory even though there are a million simpler ways to solve the problem" and all the other bullshit we get from TRoS!

Rose stopping Finn? At the start when he tries to desert the rebels resistance? What's wrong with that? He's not the hero people want him to be, he doesn't want to die for a cause that he's not bought into, Rose is loyal to her core and just lost her sister to the empire, of course she's going to stop him running away!

Poe is established as a hot head, he thinks he knows best, has seen that the resistance have just been decimated by the first order attack on their base and during the massively failed bombing run. Add to that he's lost his leader in Leia and sees her replaced with someone he doesn't know or trust and who seemingly has no plan for what to do - how does him taking matters into his own hands (along with others who agree with him) and trying to rescue the situation not make sense from the perspective of his character?

Snoke? Literally have no idea what the problem is here plot wise?

Dialogue? I like the mum joke! It works well enough, is in line with the established character of Poe (practically his first lines when introduced in TFA are to take the piss out of Kylo's voice FFS!) and serves its purpose - to piss of Huxx and distract him.

Luke. I still have zero understanding of people's problem with how he was handled in this! What exactly is wrong? The guy has gone hermit yes but it's very well articulated why and the film takes him through a full arc of development relating to it. Also it's TFA that establishes the idea that Luke has given up on helping the resistance and dicked off to an island hidden away from everyone what was the TLJ supposed to do, have Rey turn up and Luke go "oh gooseberry fool, you guys need me!? I never knew! I had no reason to disappear and just hide here whilst you all died so now that you've come to get me I'll be right along to help!"

Yep Super Leia is gooseberry fool, no problems with that one - I don't think it's necessarily implausible though, SW has established elsewhere that force users can survive in space so it's not completely insane. The BB8 AT-ST scene is equally janky yep, but that's pretty low level visual stuff compared to the fact the core of TRoS doesn't fundamentally make any sense, whatsoever - I'll take a wonky size droid over a hidden super army of death Star destroyers that have been built in secret for 30 years any day!

Canto Blight could be a deleted scene from AoTC (as could the BB8 ATST stuff), it's awful artistically, carries on the same cringe worthy humour with the BB8 slot machine and is completely pointless.

Rose stopping Finn from sacrificing himself to save the Resistance and his friends would have been a good moment but they bottled it for some more cringy dialogue about love then magically get back to the base.

Poe isn't established as going against command and the while thing could have been avoided if Holdo's plan was discussed. Maybe then they could have come up with something better than sacrificing half the fleet.

Snoke is set up as the mysterious villain and thrown away with nothing added and another poor attempt at comedy with the tongue rolling out stuff. It's just a complete waste.

The mum joke is horrendous, it's completely out of place with the rest of the series and just a badly done scene. See the last episode of The Mandelorian to see how to do this properly.

With Luke it's more the way the character is handled, I just don't believe the character from the previous films would have turned out this way. I don't believe he would have tried to kill a child and I don't believe he would have turned into a petulant dick because of it. It's nothing to do with the character being sacred or anything, I just didn't think it was done very well. That and the entire sequence doesn't add anything to the character of Rey. At least Luke did have some kind of arc though and the stuff on Crait is pretty cool.

You don't think Leah suddenly being a super Jedi is implausible? We've already seen master Jedi's being gunned down and blown up yet Leah can survive both the blast and is suddenly one of the most powerful Jedi's in the universe. Getting into the lore isn't the problem though, it's just a really bad scene that adds nothing.

I don't hate TLJ, as I said I don't understand how fans manage to overlook all these glaring and obvious problems, I'm sure it became more about choosing a side with the all the controversy surrounding it. TLJ is equally to blame for the story not going anywhere as it's the penultimate film and throws away things that were set up in TFA and doesn't add anything new. I don't disagree with your issues with TRoS, I think they're equally problematic but I also understand how you could enjoy both.

[Joer]

Just chipping in on the recent Episode 9 rewatchers. I actually can’t remember what it’s called which isn’t a good start. Rise of the Skywalker? Whatever.

It was still gooseberry fool. I really hoped I didn’t like it the first time as I was just tired at a midnight showing, but nope, as soon as the title crawl started I began to remember why I hated it.

TFA & TLJ have cool set pieces (Poe’s one hell of a pilot/Holdo manoeuvre as examples) and this has nothing. Everything it sets up it undos. There’s so much that just doesn’t make sense or feel like it was thought about. I hope I never have to see this again.

[Jenuall]

I can definitely appreciate why some don't like TLJ, it certainly treads a different path to what many would have wanted or expected, but like I say my main point was that I think the problems it has are very different to those of TRoS. I don't see why it should be strange for someone to love TLJ and hate TRoS. If anything loving TLJ is basically a surefire way to hate TRoS because the latter is a movie that, along with all of its many, many basic problem contained within its own self, is almost custom designed to strawberry float up anything good or interesting that TLJ tried to say.

I think the way Luke is presented in TLJ works because a whole generation has passed between Luke in RoJ and here. A hell of a lot can happen in 30 years to twist and change someone. Also the character that people think they know so well from the original trilogy is someone that I would argue we largely still knew relatively little about. The original trilogy takes place over the course of only a few years and he doesn't exactly have much in the way of stable mentor-ship over that short time. Most Jedi spent a lifetime in training and guidance, Luke had brief contact with two Jedi who both died shortly after meeting him. Not exactly the ideal recipe for creating a perfect Jedi Master that will never have any problems going forward! (Hey I don't know, maybe Luke managed to perfect his training in such a short time because of his midichlorian count or something! ) Also in terms of his tone etc. toward Rey - he's training her, he's not there to be her best buddy. Yoda was a right dick to Luke when training him so why wouldn't he be the same to Rey?!

[Tomous]

Oh goodie, we're discussing The Last Jedi again



If this doesn't bring Taf back nothing will

[Victor Mildew]

The force awakens - loved it on first watch, but subsequent watches really show up that it's a soft reboot of a new hope. It was exactly what needed to be made at the time though.

The last Jedi - I didn't think it was a bad film, I just didn't like the story at all. I didn't expect anything but what I saw was clearly not what i wanted. The prequel grade horse race casino bollocks, throwing the lightsaber away, shouty hux, Mary poppins and mum joke were all low points.

Rise of Skywalker - absolute strawberry floating gooseberry fool show of a film. The only redeeming thing it has for me is it looks great.

The worst thing for me of the new trilogy is the main characters have no presence. Rey should be equal to luke Skywalker in screen presence, Poe should be as cool as han solo, but to me they're just characters that were there while the mess of a story played out from one toy advert to the next. I had tears in my eyes when we saw luke at the end of TFA, would I feel the same seeing Rey and Poe in another star wars film in 30 years? I highly doubt it. I shouldn't be thinking Kylo is the best character all the way through and hoping he wins all the time. Finn, god what a waste of a character, a storm trooper that's broken free, how cool is that. But no, has just there doing stuff.

[Hexx]

Oh god. It's here again

[Victor Mildew]

Oh god. It's here again

It was Palpatine all along, shitposting this whole time!

[Jenuall]

Dunno about TFA but I certainly had tears in my eyes at the end of TRoS.

Mainly because I had been trying to scratch them out of my head and give my brain a distraction from the nightmare that it had just witnessed.

[7256930752]

I can definitely appreciate why some don't like TLJ, it certainly treads a different path to what many would have wanted or expected, but like I say my main point was that I think the problems it has are very different to those of TRoS. I don't see why it should be strange for someone to love TLJ and hate TRoS. If anything loving TLJ is basically a surefire way to hate TRoS because the latter is a movie that, along with all of its many, many basic problem contained within its own self, is almost custom designed to strawberry float up anything good or interesting that TLJ tried to say.

I think the way Luke is presented in TLJ works because a whole generation has passed between Luke in RoJ and here. A hell of a lot can happen in 30 years to twist and change someone. Also the character that people think they know so well from the original trilogy is someone that I would argue we largely still knew relatively little about. The original trilogy takes place over the course of only a few years and he doesn't exactly have much in the way of stable mentor-ship over that short time. Most Jedi spent a lifetime in training and guidance, Luke had brief contact with two Jedi who both died shortly after meeting him. Not exactly the ideal recipe for creating a perfect Jedi Master that will never have any problems going forward! (Hey I don't know, maybe Luke managed to perfect his training in such a short time because of his midichlorian count or something! ) Also in terms of his tone etc. toward Rey - he's training her, he's not there to be her best buddy. Yoda was a right dick to Luke when training him so why wouldn't he be the same to Rey?!

I hate that argument, it's not just a case of there being 30 years, they show you the specific event that changed him and it's not a very good explanation.

Just chipping in
TFA & TLJ have cool set pieces (Poe’s one hell of a pilot/Holdo manoeuvre as examples) and this has nothing.

Definitely, there was never a sense of danger and like with the Leia thing they found ways to undo or change it and just gave zero explanation. The whole thing has just been so pointless and I can't believe the same person that made TFA made this. I know that film played it safe but at least it had impactful moments and seemed to understand what made Star Wars good.

[DarkRula]

I can't believe the same person that made TFA made this. I know that film played it safe but at least it had impactful moments and seemed to understand what made Star Wars good.

But that's because TFA copied the parts that made Star Wars goo... Wait. Saying that implies that doing the same for RoS should have worked, but... *looks at the ending* clearly, that's not the case.

[Jenuall]

I can definitely appreciate why some don't like TLJ, it certainly treads a different path to what many would have wanted or expected, but like I say my main point was that I think the problems it has are very different to those of TRoS. I don't see why it should be strange for someone to love TLJ and hate TRoS. If anything loving TLJ is basically a surefire way to hate TRoS because the latter is a movie that, along with all of its many, many basic problem contained within its own self, is almost custom designed to strawberry float up anything good or interesting that TLJ tried to say.

I think the way Luke is presented in TLJ works because a whole generation has passed between Luke in RoJ and here. A hell of a lot can happen in 30 years to twist and change someone. Also the character that people think they know so well from the original trilogy is someone that I would argue we largely still knew relatively little about. The original trilogy takes place over the course of only a few years and he doesn't exactly have much in the way of stable mentor-ship over that short time. Most Jedi spent a lifetime in training and guidance, Luke had brief contact with two Jedi who both died shortly after meeting him. Not exactly the ideal recipe for creating a perfect Jedi Master that will never have any problems going forward! (Hey I don't know, maybe Luke managed to perfect his training in such a short time because of his midichlorian count or something! ) Also in terms of his tone etc. toward Rey - he's training her, he's not there to be her best buddy. Yoda was a right dick to Luke when training him so why wouldn't he be the same to Rey?!

I hate that argument, it's not just a case of there being 30 years, they show you the specific event that changed him and it's not a very good explanation.

So for 30 years Luke was exactly the same and then one thing happens and he snaps? That's your take away from it? We have no idea what challenges Luke has faced between RotJ and TLJ, dealing with the fallout from the battle against the empire, gaining and then losing a father, gaining a sister, seeing the struggles between Han and Leia, setting up his new academy to try and restore the Jedi etc. All of that presents plenty of opportunities for him to have become more world weary than what is effectively still the kid we see in the original trilogy.

In terms of the specific event we get flash backs to - is it really inconceivable that Luke would not have spent years growing concerned over whether bringing the Jedi back is actually the right move? The biggest threat to the galaxy came from a Jedi being twisted by the dark side, I sure as hell think it makes sense that Luke would fret about that being a possibility again. And then to see those fears become realised in the shape of Kylo. To learn that he has been twisted by the dark side whilst under Luke's tutelage, that he has such power and anger within him and that it may already be to late to stop the beginning of another Vader situation happening?

I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he would become.

To then have to wrestle with what to do about that and see the consequences of your own failure result in the destruction of your temple and all the students you were training at the hand of your nephew, your fleeting attempt to restore the Jedi has brought about yet more destruction just like the presence of the Jedi did in the past.

How does it not make sense that this would crush Luke? That he would blame himself for what has happened and that he would see the pattern of disaster which runs through both his line and the Jedi in general? How is him going into exile not a reasonable response to all of this?

[7256930752]

I can definitely appreciate why some don't like TLJ, it certainly treads a different path to what many would have wanted or expected, but like I say my main point was that I think the problems it has are very different to those of TRoS. I don't see why it should be strange for someone to love TLJ and hate TRoS. If anything loving TLJ is basically a surefire way to hate TRoS because the latter is a movie that, along with all of its many, many basic problem contained within its own self, is almost custom designed to strawberry float up anything good or interesting that TLJ tried to say.

I think the way Luke is presented in TLJ works because a whole generation has passed between Luke in RoJ and here. A hell of a lot can happen in 30 years to twist and change someone. Also the character that people think they know so well from the original trilogy is someone that I would argue we largely still knew relatively little about. The original trilogy takes place over the course of only a few years and he doesn't exactly have much in the way of stable mentor-ship over that short time. Most Jedi spent a lifetime in training and guidance, Luke had brief contact with two Jedi who both died shortly after meeting him. Not exactly the ideal recipe for creating a perfect Jedi Master that will never have any problems going forward! (Hey I don't know, maybe Luke managed to perfect his training in such a short time because of his midichlorian count or something! ) Also in terms of his tone etc. toward Rey - he's training her, he's not there to be her best buddy. Yoda was a right dick to Luke when training him so why wouldn't he be the same to Rey?!

I hate that argument, it's not just a case of there being 30 years, they show you the specific event that changed him and it's not a very good explanation.

So for 30 years Luke was exactly the same and then one thing happens and he snaps? That's your take away from it? We have no idea what challenges Luke has faced between RotJ and TLJ, dealing with the fallout from the battle against the empire, gaining and then losing a father, gaining a sister, seeing the struggles between Han and Leia, setting up his new academy to try and restore the Jedi etc. All of that presents plenty of opportunities for him to have become more world weary than what is effectively still the kid we see in the original trilogy.

In terms of the specific event we get flash backs to - is it really inconceivable that Luke would not have spent years growing concerned over whether bringing the Jedi back is actually the right move? The biggest threat to the galaxy came from a Jedi being twisted by the dark side, I sure as hell think it makes sense that Luke would fret about that being a possibility again. And then to see those fears become realised in the shape of Kylo. To learn that he has been twisted by the dark side whilst under Luke's tutelage, that he has such power and anger within him and that it may already be to late to stop the beginning of another Vader situation happening?

I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he would become.

To then have to wrestle with what to do about that and see the consequences of your own failure result in the destruction of your temple and all the students you were training at the hand of your nephew, your fleeting attempt to restore the Jedi has brought about yet more destruction just like the presence of the Jedi did in the past.

How does it not make sense that this would crush Luke? That he would blame himself for what has happened and that he would see the pattern of disaster which runs through both his line and the Jedi in general? How is him going into exile not a reasonable response to all of this?

Yes because that's how the film portrays it. Everything else is pure speculation on your part. Don't get me wrong I'm glad that you got that from the film and I wish I could enjoy it as much as you but the film should do a better job of setting this up.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

Have we gone back in time to 2017/2018? Awesome no virus and we haven’t left the EU yet. Life is good!!

By the way I thought The Last Jedi was far better that Rise of Skywalker. TLJ has a lot of faults but was a far better, balanced, enjoyable, plotted out film.

The Leia floating threw space bit was awful. Mainly because it hadn’t been established to us that she had become a super dooper master jedi by that point so it felt out of place. Also I don’t like the idea of a jedi having that kind of power. Makes previous jedi seem a bit gooseberry fool.

Also I didn’t particularly enjoy the casino horse bit and people describe it as prequel esq bollocks but in that case it’s fits in well with the Star Wars universe.

[Jenuall]

See, TLJ is so good it even has the power to transport us to a better time!

[Return_of_the_STAR]

See, TLJ is so good it even has the power to transport us to a better time!

Yep generally though I agree with you, I quite enjoyed TLJ.

[Godzilla]

Have many people seen the Holiday Special? I saw it last year and it's .... Different. All the Wookie stuff has not aged well.

[Moggy]

Also I don’t like the idea of a jedi having that kind of power. Makes previous jedi seem a bit gooseberry fool.

I’m not defending that scene (it was poorly done) but it’s no different to things that Jedi were doing in Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and the Clone Wars TV show. If anything Leia was massive underpowered.

[Frank]

Isn't it literally just her using like Force Pull or whatever to drag herself back towards the ship