The Unpopular Opinion Thread

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Frank
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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Frank » Tue May 19, 2020 12:23 pm

It was weird there was so much in the "Legends" extended universe they *could* have drawn on/re-used for the sequels and they just didn't bother.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Tomous » Tue May 19, 2020 12:24 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:The difference is the original trilogy explicitly set up the prequels, but doesn't have any sequel hooks



Exactly.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Moggy » Tue May 19, 2020 12:32 pm

Tomous wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:The difference is the original trilogy explicitly set up the prequels, but doesn't have any sequel hooks



Exactly.


The Emperor was dead (maybe ;) ) and Vader died. But there were still plenty of unanswered questions that could lead into sequels. Did the empire carry on? Did Luke restore the Jedi order? Did the Ewoks get a taste for manflesh and attack the rest of the galaxy?

Lucas himself planned to do a 7, 8 and 9 all about Anakin's grandkids. The hooks are there, Disney just had zero coherent vision for the trilogy.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Mafro » Tue May 19, 2020 12:36 pm

Frank wrote:It was weird there was so much in the "Legends" extended universe they *could* have drawn on/re-used for the sequels and they just didn't bother.

Yeah some of the EU stuff was really good. Thought it was daft the way Disney just waved it all away in one sweep.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Jenuall » Tue May 19, 2020 12:42 pm

That's the real tragedy of it, there are plenty of ways that they could have continued the films with the sequels but they completely fluffed it. Even ignoring the EU stuff which Disney seemed obsessed with doing at the start they should have been able to come up with something better than just resetting things to rebels vs. empire in such a dull way that they did.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by OrangeRKN » Tue May 19, 2020 12:58 pm

Moggy wrote:
Tomous wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:The difference is the original trilogy explicitly set up the prequels, but doesn't have any sequel hooks



Exactly.


The Emperor was dead (maybe ;) ) and Vader died. But there were still plenty of unanswered questions that could lead into sequels. Did the empire carry on? Did Luke restore the Jedi order? Did the Ewoks get a taste for manflesh and attack the rest of the galaxy?

Lucas himself planned to do a 7, 8 and 9 all about Anakin's grandkids. The hooks are there, Disney just had zero coherent vision for the trilogy.


Those aren't sequel hooks, they're just potential new stories. Everything in the story of the original trilogy gets resolved. That's why the sequels were so open to take things in whatever direction they wanted.

Lucas planned for the sequel trilogy, but the original trilogy isn't unfinished without them

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by OrangeRKN » Tue May 19, 2020 12:59 pm

Jenuall wrote:That's the real tragedy of it


It's not a story Disney would tell you

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by grog monster 64 » Tue May 19, 2020 1:00 pm

I kind of feel they HAD to make it clear that EU stuff wasn’t canon, so that people could come in and feel they had the freedom to tell a story.
But the problem is, how do you tell an interesting story that takes place after “happily ever after”? This is a problem the EU had, where new conflicts were manufactured but ended up being misplaced fan service and wish fulfilment. And then the sequel trilogy faced the same problem.
Would a trilogy about Luke setting up a new Jedi order be interesting? The New Republic? The further adventures of Han Solo? Probably not. You’d face the problem of trying to introduce new characters anyone would actually care about while sidelining fan favourites. I don’t want Luke recast as a Dumbledore-like figure. And, frankly, if he became an all-powerful Jedi-badass as some seemed to want, how exactly would you create meaningful conflict?
It’s these issues that, I feel, make the scenario presented in Ep 7 seem like an inevitable bit of dramatic problem solving by Kasdan and Abrams. History shows us that we are doomed to repeat mistakes: letting tyranny flourish; relying on people’s better nature when they are more likely to respond to fear with cowardice; and being overwhelmed by failure.
I’m not defending every dramatic beat of the sequels, but I understand why at least the first two are the way they are.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Moggy » Tue May 19, 2020 1:03 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Tomous wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:The difference is the original trilogy explicitly set up the prequels, but doesn't have any sequel hooks



Exactly.


The Emperor was dead (maybe ;) ) and Vader died. But there were still plenty of unanswered questions that could lead into sequels. Did the empire carry on? Did Luke restore the Jedi order? Did the Ewoks get a taste for manflesh and attack the rest of the galaxy?

Lucas himself planned to do a 7, 8 and 9 all about Anakin's grandkids. The hooks are there, Disney just had zero coherent vision for the trilogy.


Those aren't sequel hooks, they're just potential new stories. Everything in the story of the original trilogy gets resolved. That's why the sequels were so open to take things in whatever direction they wanted.

Lucas planned for the sequel trilogy, but the original trilogy isn't unfinished without them


Any sequel/prequel has the potential to go in any direction the creators want to take it.

I agree Disney dropped the ball on the sequel trilogy. But it's wrong to suggest that there was nothing unresolved and that there were no hooks for potential sequels.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Jenuall » Tue May 19, 2020 1:03 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
Jenuall wrote:That's the real tragedy of it


It's not a story Disney would tell you

Nice. :datass:

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by OrangeRKN » Tue May 19, 2020 1:04 pm

The crime wasn't in sweeping away the EU to create a new canon, it was in the immediate mess they made of what was supposed to be a clean and understandable new canon. Even the first film doesn't establish its premise unless you delve into various different bits of supplementary material, which is pretty ridiculous.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by grog monster 64 » Tue May 19, 2020 1:12 pm

The basic premise is that the more things change the more they stay the same- a broken political system, a power vacuum birthing tyranny, fear leading to evil... it’s like poetry, it rhymes.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Lex-Man » Tue May 19, 2020 1:34 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:The crime wasn't in sweeping away the EU to create a new canon, it was in the immediate mess they made of what was supposed to be a clean and understandable new canon. Even the first film doesn't establish its premise unless you delve into various different bits of supplementary material, which is pretty ridiculous.


They didn't have a plan for the trilogy and then they handed the film off to film makers with very different ideas for the future of the franchise and it didn't mesh well.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by OrangeRKN » Tue May 19, 2020 1:49 pm

grog monster 64 wrote:The basic premise is that the more things change the more they stay the same- a broken political system, a power vacuum birthing tyranny, fear leading to evil... it’s like poetry, it rhymes.


This is more the theme than what I am calling the premise i.e. the setup of the world in which the story is set. Establishing who the First Order and the Resistance are etc.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by grog monster 64 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:05 pm

But the point of it is really that, call them First Order or Empire, Resistance or Rebellion, it’s really same gooseberry fool different day. I can’t imagine the circumstances surrounding their creation being remotely interesting. Well, any more than taxation of trade routes, any way.
I feel the New Republic was kind of blown up without any kind of exposition, which made it the only senseless part of that film, but given how turgid all that was in the prequels, I’m not surprised. It’s the sort of thing Lucas would have caught in the edit and shot some pickups for, I suspect.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Jenuall » Tue May 19, 2020 2:25 pm

Some vaguely plausible exposition on how we get from the supposed great victory in RotJ to basically being back in the status quo with TFA would have been nice. It doesn't have to take forever and could have been woven in well if the writers knew what they were doing.

But yeah it's not just the magical appearance of a new, and essentially identical, enemy that causes problems - there is no real weight or grounding to the good guys either. We see nothing of the New Republic other than them being blown up near the end of TFA. Why is there only a small group of rebels fighting the first order? Why isn't there a wider response from the galaxy than this?

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Moggy » Tue May 19, 2020 2:31 pm

Jenuall wrote:Why is there only a small group of rebels fighting the first order? Why isn't there a wider response from the galaxy than this?


WW2 showed that that is pretty realistic. ;)

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Mafro » Tue May 19, 2020 2:32 pm

Was it ever actually covered anywhere how the First Order rose to power?

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Jenuall » Tue May 19, 2020 2:34 pm

Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Why is there only a small group of rebels fighting the first order? Why isn't there a wider response from the galaxy than this?


WW2 showed that that is pretty realistic. ;)

Good point, WW2 was won by about 12 blokes from the UK whilst the rest of the world flopped about waiting to be saved.

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PostRe: The Unpopular Opinion Thread
by Moggy » Tue May 19, 2020 2:36 pm

Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Why is there only a small group of rebels fighting the first order? Why isn't there a wider response from the galaxy than this?


WW2 showed that that is pretty realistic. ;)

Good point, WW2 was won by about 12 blokes from the UK whilst the rest of the world flopped about waiting to be saved.


:lol:

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