The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!

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Zilnad
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Zilnad » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:31 pm

aayl1 wrote:
Cuđđoolph wrote:If anyone here just given their notice without another job lined up before, has it helped or hindered your career long term? Are you happy you did it?

Just doesn't seem to be the 'done thing' here, aside from people in their early 20s who go traveling for a few months.


I did it in September '18.

The job I had just started turned out to be incredibly stressful and I just wasn't supported in my role at all. Gradually my responsibilities were increased to the point where I just couldn't handle it, plus there was a lot of toxic "startup" culture ("we work hard and we play hard"). This pushed me to the point of having panic attacks so I just said strawberry float it and quit.

I then spent the next 9 months working on my mental health - never realised I actually had MH issues until that point so I am grateful for it happening. I just assumed everyone always felt like they were gooseberry fool at things, etc. and were just better at dealing with it. And my inability to deal with that stuff was further evidence as to how gooseberry fool I was.

Anywho I was out of work for that time mainly as my confidence was shot and I felt existential apathy toward working for the rest of my life.

Long story short I managed to pivot into a sector I thoroughly enjoy now (so nice to not be slaving away just so international FMCG brands can make an extra 10 grand) but I took a seniority and salary hit (partially as I wanted something lower-stakes to help me build my confidence again, and to work on my work-life balance).

I also had savings that could support me for about a year, so I obviously rinsed that and now have nothing to my name (but no debt either!).

So I'd just do a calculation as to whether it'd be worth it, factoring in your current finances, current happiness, what the job market's like around there, the narrative you'd tell about the gap on you r CV in future interviews etc etc. And don't underestimate the toll that being unemployed (especially off your own back) can have on your mental health.

All in all I'm really glad what happened happened as I am far happier now, but the job market in London is pretty good especially for my skillset.

All the best, dude!


Our experiences are eerily similar. I'd never suffered a panic attack before and the first one hit me on the way to work, driving down an A road at 60 mph. That was a harrowing moment, I tell you.

I've not had a panic attack for a year now but I still get the odd twinge as if there's never one far away. Almost feels like paranoia though, in that I'm not sure if I'm really feeling the symptoms or just imagining them. The mind is fascinating.

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Oblomov Boblomov
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:54 pm

Cuđđoolph wrote:
Jenu-All I Want For Christmas wrote:Standard advice I believe is not to do it. It's easier to find and get a new job from a position of current employment.

I am absolutely expecting Mind Crime to come in and go "Oh no no no, absolutely not I could never employ someone who broke the rule of being unemployed out of your own volition". :lol:

Those with a memory for the mundane might recall I handed my notice in without another job to go to just over two years ago. I documented it in this thread.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Cuttooth » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:57 pm

I retract my lol

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:08 pm

Cuđđoolph wrote:I retract my lol

Not so fast. In answer to your question, yes I would absolutely ring the alarm bells if I noticed someone had left their job without another one to go to. Particularly if, for example, they were then clearly desperately applying for jobs immediately afterwards.

If there was a period of travel or study or voluntary work etc in between then it's a different story. But if they've just gone straight back into the job market, I'd consider it a cause for concern.

There could be any number of legitimate reasons why they've done it and it's not going to be the only deciding factor. However, shortlisting is a risk-based exercise and leaving a job to become unemployed registers very high up on the scale.

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by SEP » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:12 pm

I Shot A Kid wrote:
Cuđđoolph wrote:I retract my lol

Not so fast. In answer to your question, yes I would absolutely ring the alarm bells if I noticed someone had left their job without another one to go to. Particularly if, for example, they were then clearly desperately applying for jobs immediately afterwards.

If there was a period of travel or study or voluntary work etc in between then it's a different story. But if they've just gone straight back into the job market, I'd consider it a cause for concern.

There could be any number of legitimate reasons why they've done it and it's not going to be the only deciding factor. However, shortlisting is a risk-based exercise and leaving a job to become unemployed registers very high up on the scale.


Or it just means their previous place of employment was awful. People usually don't take such decisions lightly.

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by aayl1 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:21 pm

Zilnad wrote:
aayl1 wrote:
Cuđđoolph wrote:If anyone here just given their notice without another job lined up before, has it helped or hindered your career long term? Are you happy you did it?

Just doesn't seem to be the 'done thing' here, aside from people in their early 20s who go traveling for a few months.


I did it in September '18.

The job I had just started turned out to be incredibly stressful and I just wasn't supported in my role at all. Gradually my responsibilities were increased to the point where I just couldn't handle it, plus there was a lot of toxic "startup" culture ("we work hard and we play hard"). This pushed me to the point of having panic attacks so I just said strawberry float it and quit.

I then spent the next 9 months working on my mental health - never realised I actually had MH issues until that point so I am grateful for it happening. I just assumed everyone always felt like they were gooseberry fool at things, etc. and were just better at dealing with it. And my inability to deal with that stuff was further evidence as to how gooseberry fool I was.

Anywho I was out of work for that time mainly as my confidence was shot and I felt existential apathy toward working for the rest of my life.

Long story short I managed to pivot into a sector I thoroughly enjoy now (so nice to not be slaving away just so international FMCG brands can make an extra 10 grand) but I took a seniority and salary hit (partially as I wanted something lower-stakes to help me build my confidence again, and to work on my work-life balance).

I also had savings that could support me for about a year, so I obviously rinsed that and now have nothing to my name (but no debt either!).

So I'd just do a calculation as to whether it'd be worth it, factoring in your current finances, current happiness, what the job market's like around there, the narrative you'd tell about the gap on you r CV in future interviews etc etc. And don't underestimate the toll that being unemployed (especially off your own back) can have on your mental health.

All in all I'm really glad what happened happened as I am far happier now, but the job market in London is pretty good especially for my skillset.

All the best, dude!


Our experiences are eerily similar. I'd never suffered a panic attack before and the first one hit me on the way to work, driving down an A road at 60 mph. That was a harrowing moment, I tell you.

I've not had a panic attack for a year now but I still get the odd twinge as if there's never one far away. Almost feels like paranoia though, in that I'm not sure if I'm really feeling the symptoms or just imagining them. The mind is fascinating.


Yep I know exactly what you mean. I have found mindfulness meditation to have been immensely helpful along with a decent therapist (£60 a session, NHS CBT did strawberry float all for me).

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Oblomov Boblomov
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:21 pm

Somebody Else's Presents wrote:
I Shot A Kid wrote:
Cuđđoolph wrote:I retract my lol

Not so fast. In answer to your question, yes I would absolutely ring the alarm bells if I noticed someone had left their job without another one to go to. Particularly if, for example, they were then clearly desperately applying for jobs immediately afterwards.

If there was a period of travel or study or voluntary work etc in between then it's a different story. But if they've just gone straight back into the job market, I'd consider it a cause for concern.

There could be any number of legitimate reasons why they've done it and it's not going to be the only deciding factor. However, shortlisting is a risk-based exercise and leaving a job to become unemployed registers very high up on the scale.


Or it just means their previous place of employment was awful. People usually don't take such decisions lightly.

Oh, definitely. That's the reason I handed my notice in.

Yes, I would have considered myself high risk.

I've been doing some shortlisting today for a job advert that still has a full week to run and is already pushing 100 applications. For one position. There simply isn't room to risk shortlisting someone who left their job to become unemployed, when I've got 10-20 viable candidates without any red flags on their CVs.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Cuttooth » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:35 pm

How have you flagged someone as voluntarily unemployed instead of simply unemployed by their CV? Are they mentioning it in a covering letter?

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:45 pm

On our application portal, the most recent employment history section includes a question asking the reason for leaving.

People are usually conscious of gaps, so even if it didn't ask for it I expect most would add an explanation somewhere else.

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Frank
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Frank » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 pm

Application Portal :dread:

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aayl1
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by aayl1 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 pm

I Shot A Kid wrote:

I've been doing some shortlisting today for a job advert that still has a full week to run and is already pushing 100 applications. For one position. There simply isn't room to risk shortlisting someone who left their job to become unemployed, when I've got 10-20 viable candidates without any red flags on their CVs.


Yeah I totally understand this. I feel like I only managed to circumvent this "bias" (is that the right word? I don't mean it in a negative sense or as a slight on your decision making!) as I moved into the public sector which has super strict rules about how people get invited to interviews.

I'm also fortunate enough to be a good interviewee when I want to be and can spin/explain said gap once I'm in there.

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Cuttooth » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:40 pm

What actually makes it a high-risk factor for you though?

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:00 pm

It's the unknown. Having something else to go to (like the examples I listed earlier) provides rationale. Leaving to be unemployed is (like MCN said) a serious decision that it is likely was made for a significant reason.

Could be they jumped before they were pushed (or that they were actually just pushed). And it could be that they were themselves a significant factor in whatever breakdown caused them to leave to unemployment.

Of course, it could be that they found themselves in a fairy tale scenario involving a psychopathic, evil line manager who made it unbearable for them, despite them being a pure of heart, excellent member of the team. There are multiple sides to every story and the recruiter won't have a hope in Hell of knowing the full truth based on a job application.

Like I said, it could be any number of reasons. If that risk is present, why would I shortlist them over another application that doesn't contain that risk or other items of equal bearing?

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Dual » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:41 pm

I had 6 weeks off between jobs which just happened to coincide with the birth of my son. So unpaid paternity leave. The prospective employers and agencies I talked to when looking for my new job were all very supportive and complimented my decision to support my new family at home.

Obviously that's a very specific situation. I wouldn't normally leave a job without having something else lined up. I work in the construction industry which is notoriously cutthroat though.

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:43 pm

aayl1 wrote:
I Shot A Kid wrote:

I've been doing some shortlisting today for a job advert that still has a full week to run and is already pushing 100 applications. For one position. There simply isn't room to risk shortlisting someone who left their job to become unemployed, when I've got 10-20 viable candidates without any red flags on their CVs.


Yeah I totally understand this. I feel like I only managed to circumvent this "bias" (is that the right word? I don't mean it in a negative sense or as a slight on your decision making!) as I moved into the public sector which has super strict rules about how people get invited to interviews.

I'm also fortunate enough to be a good interviewee when I want to be and can spin/explain said gap once I'm in there.

Got to play the game, Aaron. Fair play to you 8-).

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Squinty » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 pm

Bosses tend to plonk new people down beside me, the current one is the worst I've had so far. She doesn't listen, went through 12 weeks of training and still doesn't have a clue how to do the simplest tasks.

I'm really struggling to manage my own calls/work and keep an eye on her. She needs almost constant supervision. Also she mumbles badly, I must have asked her 40 times to speak up (I have hearing issues, she sits right beside me and I can't hear her 90% of the time).

She's a right pain in the arse.

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Green Gecko » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:25 pm

Surely it's obvious how that process is going to be discriminatory against people who have to leave work for mental health reasons though or due to for example repeated failure for employers to meet reasonable adjustment obligations under the equality act, for example following the recommendations made (and funding for) Access to Work assessments?

Of course it's possible for people to choose to leave an employment because the job was gooseberry fool or management was gooseberry fool, and if for example they've persisted for months or even years beforehand, that's a fair credit to them for not quitting after a few days (which some people do, but because they have an uncanny ability to bullshit their way into a new role immediately, say for example they don't struggle with interviews or have a referral as basically a shoe-in into a rich/old-boys/alumni/ex-colleague network it doesn't impact their "job credit score""). Of course, it won't be seen that way because the process is brutal and presumptuous. Recruiters are missing out, because people with that degree of persistence and mental fortitude to make things right are better characters in my opinion who give a crap about certain standards of ethics, standard of work and (one day) treating their subordinates right.

I'm often very plain about my strengths and weakness and how I tackle things like anxiety and a cerebral brain development and neurological disorder that forces me to be unavoidably different to other people by taking 100% ownership of them and seeking treatment independently from the employer (even though they are legally obligated to help in some instances under the equality act), but when faced with the truth, even if it is discriminatory in doing so employers don't actually want to hear any of this and would much rather you simply lie, or wilfully ignore it all, in my experience. Or wilfully mischaracterise your health or disability as sabotaging the role, or the entire business.

Which is why all of that can strawberry float right off, my day rate sites around £250-£500 per day depending on the client and if they don't want someone to use their talents for their benefit them that's fine, I'd rather stay at home drawing or coding and be poor but not ill all of the time. I really would.

I used to screen and "red flag" such CVs as my job (I left after they refused to provide me with even basic things like a closed back headset and basically dumped a huge amount of strawberry floated up project work on a team of brand new temp recruits just because nobody else wanted to do it, upping the workload by an unrealistic degree. Managers who work-dump like that, yeah, nice people, they know the task is unsurmountable but you're dispensable), and I would hate to "flag" a +3m/o gap taken because for example their doctor told them that they HAD to quit or they might end up dead. I mean, do recruiters generally know how long it takes to see a doctor and receive a course of treatment for depression, bi-polar or anxiety for example? Nevermind some of the more permanent invisible disabilities.

I've had medical referrals take up to 2 YEARS for assessment in this country.

I know not all recruiters are like this, and I've worked with some good ones who have sided with me and didn't understand what the strawberry float their clients were playing at, but let's be real, if the job mostly entails cancelling out individuals rather than focusing on their strengths and easy thing to zero on is any kind of potential mental boundary to being the perfect machine then people are going to be discriminated against on the grounds of what can be amalgamation of a few small but 100% manageable learning difficulties if the manager isn't a selfish, narcissistic, unempathetic moron with no actual people skills. And recruiters cannot control that reality either; so when it comes to interview and the manager is present, they're going to say, "strawberry float managing that guy, he talks too much, or looks funny". It's not even whether it's evidently been a problem, for example there is actual evidence of a disciplinary dismissal due to gross misconduct or any other poor conduct or performance (something which has literally never happened to me, yet I've "lost" or left jobs), it's anything the client might willingly let on in the spirit of honesty, reliability and integrity that could implicate the possibility of them being less than perfect. Which means they must literally lie to get a job, which is the total opposite of what being a good worker is about.

And I'm sure there's plenty of talentless and conniving fuckwits out there who game the subtle sociological interplay of such things to serve beatdowns and bullshit their way though problems dishonestly on over 50k a year. What about how to filter those people out?

I have for example been turned down for roles I thought interviewed well for, followed it up or checked LinkedIn etc, or asked years later what happened, and the guy they hired quit after 3 weeks.

What if mid to upper level managers for example had to have references from 3-5 previous work colleagues from under them - and not ones they promoted or gave favourable work conditions or pay rises or bonuses?

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Oblomov Boblomov
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Oblomov Boblomov » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:14 am

Squinty wrote:Bosses tend to plonk new people down beside me, the current one is the worst I've had so far. She doesn't listen, went through 12 weeks of training and still doesn't have a clue how to do the simplest tasks.

I'm really struggling to manage my own calls/work and keep an eye on her. She needs almost constant supervision. Also she mumbles badly, I must have asked her 40 times to speak up (I have hearing issues, she sits right beside me and I can't hear her 90% of the time).

She's a right pain in the arse.

I can guarantee pretty much 100% that this happens because you're one of the very top performers and a reliable character.

Nice 8-)

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Squinty
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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Squinty » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:16 am

I Shot A Kid wrote:
Squinty wrote:Bosses tend to plonk new people down beside me, the current one is the worst I've had so far. She doesn't listen, went through 12 weeks of training and still doesn't have a clue how to do the simplest tasks.

I'm really struggling to manage my own calls/work and keep an eye on her. She needs almost constant supervision. Also she mumbles badly, I must have asked her 40 times to speak up (I have hearing issues, she sits right beside me and I can't hear her 90% of the time).

She's a right pain in the arse.

I can guarantee pretty much 100% that this happens because you're one of the very top performers and a reliable character.

Nice 8-)


The imposter syndrome usually keeps my ego in check :lol:

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PostRe: The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!
by Qikz » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:32 am

The very fact that people are not allowed to quit their job to take a break shows a MASSIVE problem with our society. It shouldn't matter if you have a job or not when you apply for another - surely if anything it should be worse if you're currently in work because you're showing that when you work for them you might leave them at the drop of a hat to go elsewhere.

The Watching Artist wrote:I feel so inept next to Qikz...

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