The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!

God, I had an absolutely dreadful day today.

Work colleagues trying to pass the buck, trying to get me to call someone about something that I have next to no training in. I refused to do it :simper:

Had a few completely strawberry floated up bits of work come my way after that and I've likely made a total balls of them.

Oh and they are giving me gooseberry fool about 2 strawberry floated up cases I have not been able to sort. Can't sort them because it's reliant on external parties actually doing the gooseberry fool they are meant to be doing.

Awesome.

Just took an end of life patient to a private ward with her family.

Never gets easier.

I forgot how much fun it is dragging equipment for art or music stuff around. My show in oxo wharf had me dragging two hold bags totalling about 45kg up on the train and practically disclocated my elbow.

Better bloody be worth it I spent over 7 days straight making a "flat pack" version of my interactive work. Back tomorrow. The Bargehouse is an interesting venue, only a shame it smells mildly of piss in the fire escapes.. Or maybe that was actually just the toilets. All the walls are stripped back bare and full of holes rather than this clinical white cube space pretence.

gooseberry fool day as well. Why is London so effective at looking miserable when it's supposed to be the best place ever. It's really not. Still novel from time to time and looks good on social media and stuff. Like, this is the middle of all our gooseberry fool, right? I appreciate coming back to my idyllic county town, which makes me feel spoilt (and that has its own problems... There's no rawness about it, there are secret private avenues and people argue about wall heights). I don't think I could ever live in London as it's very nice one moment and then a total gooseberry fool show the next as well as generally overwhelming. At least it's wide open though. I accidentally walked through the offices of Ogilvy which is basically insanely rich mad men style advertising agency. I actually asked if they had "gluten free options in the cafe" when asked if I could be helped :lol:

The real challenge would be showing work in somewhere like Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds or Edinburgh or overseas. I'm starting to appreciate one massive logistical advantage paintings have, for example. They are just flat things you carry or ship wherever. Two screws and you're done. By comparison this electronic sound computer driven gooseberry fool takes days, and it's not like it's a straightforward conversation if someone buys it.

It's more likely to want showing in other galleries, which can lead to all sorts. There's a grand and a half in cash prizes also. We'll see.

But to be honest it's nice just to talk to people who understand how you can never really fit in anywhere as an artist, because you're constantly looking for something new. It's been quite a long time since I saw something that was actually novel and interesting in person, rather than doing research of my own. That said, I don't really venture into cities to look at stuff often.. I probably should. I'm too busy running my studio for the day job.

Top floor in the attic is completely shrouded in darkness with lots of cool neon and light sculptures stuff too.

If anyone is interested and likes art stuff, look up London Ultra on the Oxo Tower website. It's Southbank about 2 minutes from Blackfriars. Stuff from all over the place from 100 different artists, international, and curated and selected so there shouldn't be too much gooseberry fool or anything too similar because it's just a vanity show by some close knit group. They seem to actually be trying to be diverse. So not just walls of paintings of cows or old men with swords and stuff. Or "modern art", which was modern 60 years ago. The only thing the group is about is for artists to work on whatever medium they want rather than just clay or oil etc. It's on for 10 days and entry is free as it's run by an artist's cooperative/society. Does mean commission on sales is 30% though.

From what I've seen the highest standard is in sculpture. But I don't rate much contemporary painting work. They either can't draw which pisses me off as I just see bad form in observation work or their expressive/gestural qualities have been done a million times in the past hundred years. Paint is pretty dead imo as there's not much else that can be done with it. Which is a funny thing to say as I might do some painting again for the next show I do. I'll just have to mix it up somehow...

Work is soul destroying at the moment. I'm bored out of my mind doing tedious, repetitive work which is far beneath someone of my skill level and experience, but there's nobody of any level of competency in the company who can be trusted with it (its hundreds of certification documents). I've fallen asleep at my desk every day this week so far, it's strawberry floating ridiculous.

When going for a job that says their salary as a 4-5k 'range'. During the hiring process they're obviously going to ask what my salary expectations are, and I'm going to want the top of the range and they're going to want to offer me the bottom. How's best to approach this? (My current role is at the bottom of the range (with overtime), and I've twice been told I'm getting a pay rise this year only for for it to not happen - which would make me think asking near the top isn't unreasonable (as it's a very similar role with perhaps a bit more responsibility), but if they were to ask what I'm on now I feel it doesn't accurately demonstrate what I think my current role is worth)

Never tell someone what you are on now as you lose all negotiating power. It is difficult if you are taking a job / getting promotion in the same company as they can see what you are on.

If you can, try and phrase you salary expectations as: " My target salary is [number] "

by doing this, you can aim higher that what is advertised and still have wiggle room. For instance, if you go in asking for 5k and all they offer is 4k you are stuck.
But if you go in saying your target is 6k and they offer 5K ... well you get the idea.

The best part of the phrase "target salary" is that you are effectively saying. I am worth the top end, and I expect more from this company should things progress well.

\edit: Its also worth saying that you "want to take any benefits packages into account". I was in a similar situation 6 months ago. I kept quiet about my salary, let them pursue me, and I made sure I kept asking about the entire package of what working with the new company would be like.

It's been a long time since I bothered going for interviews, but I remember being honest about the salary I was on (paranoid they could somehow check!), but lied about having an improved offer from elsewhere.

I was then offered the job at a salary that matched my lie and when I resigned I told my current company that the offer was £1k more than it was. They offered to match it and so I stayed where I was with a nice pay increase.

It's a different company, so at least they wont know what I'm on. So if they ask what I'm on just say something like "I'm not going to share that"? What if they ask me why I won't tell them?

Regarding the "my target number" thing, it mostly make sense, but I'm trying to imagine how that conversation would play out:

Them: what are your salary expectations
Me: my targe salary is Z
Them: If you read the job listing you can clearly see we're offering X-Y.
Me: I'm not taking about what I want now, but what I expect in the future
Them: Well we are as you don't even have a job here yet, what are your salary expectations for this role?

Which doesn't seem a good way to approach it. Could you give an example of how it could play out? I've never been in a negotiation where they give a gooseberry fool about what you want - but I think part of it is down to working for a family run company so they seem to take everything really personally.

That's not a growth wrote:It's a different company, so at least they wont know what I'm on. So if they ask what I'm on just say something like "I'm not going to share that"? What if they ask me why I won't tell them?

I don't think there is any need to worry about this, recruitment and hiring managers know the game. You just have to play along.

All interviews are different, and there is no real playbook. Try your best to hide or inflate what you are currently on. As for a good exchange, mine was similar to this:

Company: So the salary range is between X - Y. Does this fit you expectations?

You: I think that is a fair starting point, however it is similar to my current salary. Ideally I am targeting Z

Company: Well unfortunately I am limited to this range for all members of my team. I don't have any room to go above Y.

You: Okay I can understand that. However, I need to make sure that this is competitive compared to what I am on and my current benefits package.

Company: [Company name] offers a really comprehensive package, we can get some material over to you to see if its a good fit.

Now I want to say here that my interview process was quite odd in that I had 7 interviews. After the initial face to face, where more of this info came, out I was in a position where I knew we would be speaking again. I didn't want to ask for a certain salary until I knew they wanted me.

The recruiter at HR did confide in me later that she had no idea if I was going to take the job or not, and that it really kept them on their toes.

If you don't mind me asking who are you going to interview with / what industry?

My advice having done a lot of recruitment over the years.

Don’t apply for a role if the advertised salary isn’t anywhere near what you want/need. It’s a waste of every-ones time - and ideally if so should be discussed at the beginning of the process if they contact you first.

Secondly don’t lie about your currently salary, people may add a few grand here and there, perhaps expected but if you say you are on 60k and only 40k... it won’t end well for you if and when they find out. Your right you don’t need to tell them, but you’ll look more difficult & less likely to get the role. How can they make an offer if you won’t share the details. It’s not always about low-balling, if you want the top range you need to justify it by your experience skills and such in the interview. Then we can talk it over

I think that is fair, I guess you can't really expect a hiring team to make an offer without any details, but during the interview process surely the details should be focused on (like you said) experience and skills?

I suppose I've been in the privileged position for applying for other jobs with still employed for the most part, which definitely makes it easier.

Kezzer wrote:I think that is fair, I guess you can't really expect a hiring team to make an offer without any details, but during the interview process surely the details should be focused on (like you said) experience and skills?

I suppose I've been in the privileged position for applying for other jobs with still employed for the most part, which definitely makes it easier.

I agree but at some stage during the initial phone call/interview this should be established

A) to gauge what offer they’d need to make (a lot of time they have to report back to the person hiring the role & a director
B) say you instantly had a much higher salary than they have publicly offered it allows them to go back & discuss with those stakeholders if they think you are an asset to recruit- then they can look at creating positions, bringing you on board in another role if possible, or blowing the budget entirely

Ultimately it’s for that & to not waste either persons time. Although I’ve certainly heard horror stories (I’ve only ever done recruitment for companies directly - internal) but I’ve read a lot of bad press from other recruiters or agencies.

Fully agree, in my case the salary was unknown upon applying, and found out after the first phone interview with the hiring manager that:

a.) there was a range
b.) what the range was

After finding that out I knew I needed to get the higher banding to make it worth my while, but I didn't want to look desperate.

Found that keeping the interest high, and focusing on the entire package was my (probably not so subtle) way of indicating my preference to the higher band.

This is why I like the etiquette of the more professional agencies or companies that use contractors.

"What is your day rate?"

Then I only have to worry about how much I want, not how to tell them what I want or how much they can afford.

When I got the offer for my interview I had to book it online, only giving me two slots to choose from, a couple of hours apart of the same day. I booked one, but can't make it now. I emailed them on Tuesday to see what options there were, saying there's actually only two days that are bad for me. I got an email back from their recruitment team saying they'll speak to the people doing the interviews and get back to me. As I hadn't heard anything I chased them at lunch today, but didn't get a response. strawberry floating baffling.

Finally got it sorted. It's in just over 2 weeks time. Now that I've already asserted dominance by making them work around me I'm sure to get the position easily.

That's not a growth wrote:Finally got it sorted. It's in just over 2 weeks time. Now that I've already asserted dominance by making them work around me I'm sure to get the position easily.

I cancelled an interview for my current job, ended up having to wait another 2 weeks for one but eventually got one and ended up getting the job so it doesn’t always mean insta-doom.

Good to know all is not lost. I was wondering if they were just going to say "maybe just don't bother then", but at least things are moving.

To change the subject to my current place; I found out yesterday our matching bonus for our pension is the post tax amount you're paid, not the pre tax - is this normal?

Most job applications have you specify a salary range when you apply right? I am hiring an assistant (just looking at CVs - recruitment takes forever) and if their salary range is outside what I want, I instantly dismiss them. That being said, if they were really good, and were asking for a couple of 1000 bucks more, I might try and get it through.

But then I would have to go and ask my boss, and who wants to do that?

The Work Thread 2 - Get back to work!

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