Transwomen in Sport

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Pancake
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by Pancake » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:30 pm

I agree with everything Karl/Taf/Moggy have said but feel an overwhelming urge to argue with them anyway

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caseinpoint
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by caseinpoint » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:39 pm

Pancake wrote:I agree with everything Karl/Taf/Moggy have said but feel an overwhelming urge to argue with them anyway


Not quite. I disagree with the way everyone has dealt with Mommy. I disagree that it won’t be significant in the future. I disagree that a small problem in some sports is no problem really. I disagree with the current measures to curb the advantage actually do this. I disagree that this is a question of treating people equally vs. not. And I disagree that we really know the origins of trans to anything like the degree that is being claimed.

You may have noticed Karl, at the very least, has presented some views he hadn’t previously regarding categorisation, which came as a direct result of additional discussion.

So no. I would say nice try, but it wasn’t even that.

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Pancake
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by Pancake » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:52 pm

I was legitimately talking about my own urges, not trolling you. :lol:

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caseinpoint
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by caseinpoint » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:57 pm

Pancake wrote:I was legitimately talking about my own urges, not trolling you. :lol:


Damnit, I nearly pretended that too!

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by OrangeRKN » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:10 am

From an arms-length following of this thread it appears to me that a large part of the confusion around who should be able to compete in what category comes down to most sports not differentiating between gender and physical characteristics in their categorisations - instead using gender divided categories as analogous to a categorisation of physical differences which is generally well correlated but clearly fails in some situations, which can include some trans athletes.

If the categorisation is by gender (and sometimes this is the intention of categorisation, to encourage participation in a sport or game for example) then the answer is simply absolute and not up for debate - trans women are women and should compete in the women's category.

Where the intention of categorisation in sport is to provide competition for people with different physical characteristics, using gender to define some of those categories is incompatible with all instances and reform appears necessary, if only to avoid this confusion. We can look to categorisations like weight classes in combat sports as an example of some purely physical measure. The only difference in defining a male and female category (as opposed to men and women) is in the number of variables that measured together all contribute to what is generally understood as the difference between male and female, which makes such categorisation harder to understand for the layperson. Inevitably such a categorisation will never align perfectly with categorisation by gender.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by Skarjo » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:13 am

Mommy wrote:That's all rather passive aggressive isnt it? Are you trying to help me understand all this or are you trying to push me further away?


I gave you a detailed, completely non-aggressive post that you could have replied to, and you didn't.

You chose instead to keep bleating that you were being excluded from the discussion.

I want to think this is a good faith attempt on your part to be part of a discussion, but when you dodge opportunities to do so, it's hard to think as such.

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LightWanderer
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by LightWanderer » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:19 am

mic wrote:Also, YouTube ContraPoints!


Haven't heard of them before- I generally avoid watching too much MTF stuff because it feels like "hitting a little too close to home for comfort", hence why all my favourite trans* YouTubers are FTM, but will have a quick look in the morning.

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Mommy wrote:Im sorry for my ignorance, 100%. Im not trolling.
Ill have a look at the stuff that lightwanderer and mic have suggested.
There is no need for me to "Log off" to do that.
If its okay to ask genuine questions then maybe you guys with the strong pro positions could tell me why this is the case?
Lets start again, huh?
Ill get more informed and better my understanding.


Trust me, as someone who used to be a huge supporter of Donald Trump before GRcade knocked me down a load of pegs, when you're on the wrong side of an argument it's ALWAYS better to leave and do research instead of continuing to bicker on without having done the research. Otherwise you're just building a bigger hole for yourself.
Asking genuine questions in an effort to get educated is great but it's clear from your later posts that you're not interested in that.

Mommy wrote:
Karl_ wrote:you can tell by the way that they already answer his questions and he's ignored them).


In my defence, I was in work and didnt have a great deal of time to read the stuff posted by others.


Mommy wrote:I dont think my opinions (based on the things Im reading tonight) will be seen as genuine if I post them. I expect Ill get shouted down again.


If you want to learn, why not ask questions about the stuff you've been reading tonight? This sounds like BS to me. I'm sorry but a spade is a spade. You can't one minute say you want to get educated and then the next minute say you don't want to ask questions as you'll "get shouted down again". Can you tell us what stuff you have been reading?

If you have been reading up on this topic, then good man. If you haven't, please stop (a) hijacking this thread (b) posting offensive stuff. Posting in search of understanding is okay but posting just for the sake of letting your hateful opinion be heard is not cool bro. Chill.

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Moggy wrote:It’s not new. There are texts from thousands of years ago that talk about transgendered people. And it’s not arrogant to say we are correct, because treating other people equally is never the wrong thing to do.


(A) Gets confusing having someone on here called Moggy and someone on here called Mommy!
(B) Could you name some of these texts? I've never come across "thousands-years-old" texts on transgender people, unless you're referring to certain spiritual philosophies? Or is "thousands of years ago" hyperbole?
(C) Pet peeve but "transgendered" people sounds so harsh. The best alternative is "people who are transgender", the person should always come before the condition, but if you insist on shorthand, "transgender people" is better than "transgendered people". Not sure why the "ed" is so triggering but it's something I hate. You're not the only one to use that terminology in this thread so it isn't a criticism against you or anything, just this seems like the most natural time to mention it. Thanks.

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Dual
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by Dual » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:39 am

The ancient Greeks were big on androgyny. Have a look at the deity Hermaphroditus.

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Karl_
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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by Karl_ » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:21 am

The Roman emperor Elagabalus asked to be called "queen", would wear wigs and makeup and pluck body hair, and tried to pay surgeons to make a vagina.

Western cultures have mostly suppressed trans people, and until very recently have tried to pretend nonbinary people don't exist at all; but other cultures were more accepting and it's from them we have an account of trans people and enbies throughout history. In native American cultures, ancient and some contemporary Middle-Eastern cultures, South Asian cultures throughout history, both traditional and modern Thai culture, and in Japan since at least the Edo period, there are a wealth of historical accounts of trans and nonbinary people.

Wikipedia is often a bit conservative when it comes to respecting historical trans figures in other articles, but it has a good article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

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PostRe: Transwomen in Sport
by Karl_ » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:55 am

Pancake wrote:I agree with everything Karl/Taf/Moggy have said but feel an overwhelming urge to argue with them anyway

...and I'm not sure if I should be offended by this :P


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