Trans Women in Sport

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Karl_
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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Karl_ » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:35 pm

mic wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Ive realised that man and male and woman and female arent always the same thing.

a really important point to understand is that our sex characteristics are largely determined by our sex hormones, and that most trans women will have hormone replacement therapy and become "biologically female" too. if your sex and gender don't line up, you can change your sex. if a trans woman has fully transitioned then she'll have breasts and a vagina, feminine skin and tissue density (e.g. wider eyes, check out this before and after), she will have removed her facial and body hair and trained her voice to have a feminine resonance.

most trans women - those who have come out and transitioned - simply aren't male any more. they are women and they are female.

i am not saying this as a far-left ideologue. i am a medical researcher, i am giving you this true, factual information as a scientist who studies the human body.

...most trans women = women?

all trans women are women. that is their gender.

the majority, who choose to transition and undergo HRT, will also develop predominantly female biology. the point of hormone replacement (and other medical procedures they may have) is to give them those female sex characteristics. i was emphasising that in that case, which is common, their gender aligns with their (post transition) sex. they are women and have biologically female bodies.

that was the entire point of my post, and there's no way you got your deliberate misinterpretation in good faith from reading it. you're just a pathetic troll and i wish you would strawberry float off.

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Mommy Christmas
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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Mommy Christmas » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:40 pm

Karl, that link you posted to the pics of the eyes - are they the same person? It doesnt look it.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Karl_ » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:45 pm

Mommy wrote:Karl, that link you posted to the pics of the eyes - are they the same person? It doesnt look it.

they are the same person, yes - there are lots of trans timelines that look like that to be honest, where HRT really gives the face a much more feminine look. it's to do with the fat and tissue density around the face being redistributed. there are (basically - this is a simplification) receptors underneath your skin that tell the body where to store fat and how to grow the skin, and they're sensitive to the presence of oestrogen or testosterone. there's a lot of really fascinating science behind it.

in the case of trans men ("female-to-male", for clarity), where oestrogen is replaced with testosterone, you typically get the opposite effects - coarser and/or more oily skin, more masculine facial features, and typically smaller/narrower eyes

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Mommy Christmas » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:53 pm

Cool, cheers.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Grumpy David » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:43 pm

ianfianf wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Last weeks episode of South Park had a storyline with Randy Savage competing in women's sports. Worth watching for the nuance but here's a clip:



nuance? Come on :slol:


The nuance line is a reference to PC Principal who thinks the PC Babies hate him after "pushing" Heather Swanson:

And look who else is here.

- Daddy! - Daddy! - Yeah, Daddy! - Dada! Dada. I wove you.

I don't understand.

They don't care.

They must see the nuance - to this whole situation.

- You're right! They realize that raising a gender-based issue of strength doesn't necessarily make one a bigot or a bully.


All this time, we were worried what the PC Babies would think.

And we didn't realize that our little babies are growing up.
[LAUGHTER.]


Most of the people who quoted me didn't watch the episode but just the YouTube clip so didn't recognise I was referring to a specific quote.

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Karl_
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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Karl_ » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:08 pm

no-one thinks that this entirely hypothetical pre-transition trans woman who has the strength and build of Macho Man Randy Savage - who obviously doesn't exist and is a shitty bullying caricature - should be allowed to compete in combat sports against athletes much weaker than her and beat the shite out of them, as happens in the episode. and for goodness sake, why would she even want to?

that scenario only exists in transphobes' heads. "trans women athletes are just big muscly men who want to beat up the other competitors" is a deeply offensive far-right talking point. it's nothing short of disgraceful to base the plot-line of an episode around it and pretend it exposes some hypocrisy or lack of nuance on the part of "the SJWs" or whatever bogeyman they think they're fighting. it straight up advances a bigoted far-right agenda.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Saigon Slick » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:38 pm

I'm not sure Randy Savage would be much good in any sporting competition to be honest, given that he's been dead for nearly ten years.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Minty14 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:38 pm

Grumpy David wrote:
ianfianf wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Last weeks episode of South Park had a storyline with Randy Savage competing in women's sports. Worth watching for the nuance but here's a clip:



nuance? Come on :slol:


The nuance line is a reference to PC Principal who thinks the PC Babies hate him after "pushing" Heather Swanson:

And look who else is here.

- Daddy! - Daddy! - Yeah, Daddy! - Dada! Dada. I wove you.

I don't understand.

They don't care.

They must see the nuance - to this whole situation.

- You're right! They realize that raising a gender-based issue of strength doesn't necessarily make one a bigot or a bully.


All this time, we were worried what the PC Babies would think.

And we didn't realize that our little babies are growing up.
[LAUGHTER.]


Most of the people who quoted me didn't watch the episode but just the YouTube clip so didn't recognise I was referring to a specific quote.

I watched it, and as someone who still generally enjoys South Park, I can safely say it was gooseberry fool.

There was nothing approaching nuance in the episode.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Karl_ » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:46 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:I'm not sure Randy Savage would be much good in any sporting competition to be honest, given that he's been dead for nearly ten years.

Mm, there were a million more obvious and... alive choices, for their already shitty "joke", but the showrunners clearly deliberately chose him to base the character of Heather Swanson on to drive home the point that they think trans women athletes are, in fact, "macho men". It's so on-the-nose, and just utterly disgusting.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Saigon Slick » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:50 pm

I don’t know anything about the episode if I’m honest, just thought it was odd to pick an actual dead celebrity for the role. If anything that makes it even worse.

Ohhhhhhhhh no, as Savage himself might’ve said.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:38 am

mic wrote:The more I think about this the more it seems that the gender binary should just be removed from sport, with everyone allowed to compete. Im sure there are many sports in which women can do best.


Is this an anti-women thing? Looking at the most popular sports in the world, it is clear that women would have slower times or lack the strength to compete against men. Your plan would exclude women from the top of boxing, football, American football, basketball, cricket, tennis, golf, cycling, athletics etc etc. And for what? Just because you struggle to understand that a trans woman is a woman?

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by mic » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:03 am

Karl_ wrote:...there's no way you got your deliberate misinterpretation in good faith from reading it. you're just a pathetic troll and i wish you would strawberry float off.


:roll: Not sure what got your knickers in such a twist, Karl, but my ‘deliberate misinterpretation’ merely serves as yet another example of being unable to ask questions without people going off on one. ‘Good faith’? How about some benefit of doubt? I mean, I started this thread precisely so that those of us exposed to ‘transphobic’ attitudes and opinions in the media and society at large can ask questions and gain understanding about a complex issue. You could have chosen to correct my apparent misunderstanding of your words, instead of being abusive.

Your professional opinion on HRT and transitioning (“most trans women”) doesn’t address trans women who choose not to transition. If trans women who transition are “biologically female, too”, then trans women who do not transition must not be biologically female, which is a key understanding because, if trans women are women wether they transition or not, then they should not be required to transition in order to compete in women’s sport (which I think was the point being made by South Park).

‘I identify as X’ jokes are old-hat, but even as society becomes more accustomed to trans people, the issue of self-identification remains problematic. What should be done with Flame Munroe and other trans women who reject the... sanctity (?) of self-identification in favour of a more practical approach, insisting that they are ‘female impersonators’ and as such should not be allowed to compete in women’s sport?

I’m not saying that Contrapoints has made such assertions, but Natalie Wynn has been in trouble with the trans community for making statements which reveal her... rational perspective and I’ve always thought Contrapoints works so well precisely because Natalie appreciates the absurdity (her word).

If she can’t get it right, what chance do I have?

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by mic » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:16 am

Moggy wrote:
mic wrote:The more I think about this the more it seems that the gender binary should just be removed from sport, with everyone allowed to compete. Im sure there are many sports in which women can do best.


Is this an anti-women thing? Looking at the most popular sports in the world, it is clear that women would have slower times or lack the strength to compete against men. Your plan would exclude women from the top of boxing, football, American football, basketball, cricket, tennis, golf, cycling, athletics etc etc. And for what? Just because you struggle to understand that a trans woman is a woman?


Well, what’s your solution? At the moment, non-binary people are excluded and female athletes are being punished for their hormone levels.

And would men even have an advantage at football or golf?

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Merry Christmous Everyone » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:18 am

mic wrote:
Moggy wrote:
mic wrote:The more I think about this the more it seems that the gender binary should just be removed from sport, with everyone allowed to compete. Im sure there are many sports in which women can do best.


Is this an anti-women thing? Looking at the most popular sports in the world, it is clear that women would have slower times or lack the strength to compete against men. Your plan would exclude women from the top of boxing, football, American football, basketball, cricket, tennis, golf, cycling, athletics etc etc. And for what? Just because you struggle to understand that a trans woman is a woman?


Well, what’s your solution? At the moment, non-binary people are excluded and female athletes are being punished for their hormone levels.

And would men even have an advantage at football or golf?


Would men have an advantage at football? Is that a serious question?

A few years ago, the US Women’s team (the best in the world) lost 5-2 to Dallas U15’s academy side.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by mic » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:22 am

Tomous wrote:
mic wrote:
Moggy wrote:
mic wrote:The more I think about this the more it seems that the gender binary should just be removed from sport, with everyone allowed to compete. Im sure there are many sports in which women can do best.


Is this an anti-women thing? Looking at the most popular sports in the world, it is clear that women would have slower times or lack the strength to compete against men. Your plan would exclude women from the top of boxing, football, American football, basketball, cricket, tennis, golf, cycling, athletics etc etc. And for what? Just because you struggle to understand that a trans woman is a woman?


Well, what’s your solution? At the moment, non-binary people are excluded and female athletes are being punished for their hormone levels.

And would men even have an advantage at football or golf?


Would men have an advantage at football? Is that a serious question?

A few years ago, the US Women’s team (the best in the world) lost 5-2 to Dallas U15’s academy side.


Not much of a sports fan, so yeah, serious question. Why did they lose? Because they couldn’t keep up? I’ve seen female players with phenomenal skills!

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:23 am

mic wrote:
Moggy wrote:
mic wrote:The more I think about this the more it seems that the gender binary should just be removed from sport, with everyone allowed to compete. Im sure there are many sports in which women can do best.


Is this an anti-women thing? Looking at the most popular sports in the world, it is clear that women would have slower times or lack the strength to compete against men. Your plan would exclude women from the top of boxing, football, American football, basketball, cricket, tennis, golf, cycling, athletics etc etc. And for what? Just because you struggle to understand that a trans woman is a woman?


Well, what’s your solution? At the moment, non-binary people are excluded and female athletes are being punished for their hormone levels.

And would men even have an advantage at football or golf?


My solution? That would suggest I see a problem with the way things are now. There are tweeks that need to be made (Semenya for instance), but we don’t need to remove all female competition.

Tomous has answered football, but golf does require strength, I am not into golf but I’d imagine that male golfers tee off much further than female golfers.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:25 am

mic wrote:
Tomous wrote:
mic wrote:
Moggy wrote:
mic wrote:The more I think about this the more it seems that the gender binary should just be removed from sport, with everyone allowed to compete. Im sure there are many sports in which women can do best.


Is this an anti-women thing? Looking at the most popular sports in the world, it is clear that women would have slower times or lack the strength to compete against men. Your plan would exclude women from the top of boxing, football, American football, basketball, cricket, tennis, golf, cycling, athletics etc etc. And for what? Just because you struggle to understand that a trans woman is a woman?


Well, what’s your solution? At the moment, non-binary people are excluded and female athletes are being punished for their hormone levels.

And would men even have an advantage at football or golf?


Would men have an advantage at football? Is that a serious question?

A few years ago, the US Women’s team (the best in the world) lost 5-2 to Dallas U15’s academy side.


Not much of a sports fan, so yeah, serious question. Why did they lose? Because they couldn’t keep up? I’ve seen female players with phenomenal skills!


You’re not much of a sports fan, but felt qualified to start this thread, declare that female athletes are punished and then suggest we get rid of female competitions?

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Festivus Maximus » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:30 am

I think that the famous "women vs boys" match previously referred to was actually more like a training session than anything being taken seriously by either side, so shouldn't be viewed as a benchmark or anything like that.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Merry Christmous Everyone » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:49 am

Preezy wrote:I think that the famous "women vs boys" match previously referred to was actually more like a training session than anything being taken seriously by either side, so shouldn't be viewed as a benchmark or anything like that.



It was a warmup match for the World Cup and while they might not have taken it fully seriously, it's happened on numerous occasions.

The Australian national side lost 7-0 to an U15's side.
The Man United women's side lost 9-0 to Salford's youth side.
The Swedish national side lost 3-0 to an U17's local team playing with 10 men.

The physical differences between men and women in top condition are just too great. Look at Serena Williams, the greatest female tennis player ever, losing easily to a male player ranked 203rd at the time.

If you eradicate gender division like mic is naively suggesting, you basically remove women from all sports which have a physical element to them.

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PostRe: Trans Women in Sport
by Festivus Maximus » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:00 pm

Ah, perhaps I'm thinking of a different game, fair enough, wasn't aware there were other similar results out there.


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