Trans Women in Sport

<]:^D wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:Slightly OT but I see the telegraph has run an op piece stating trans people should be made to carry ID cards

ID cards? But how can a member of the public tell who they are without having to ask?

Can’t we just make them wear stars so we can easily tell?

best option is a tattoo on a easily visible area - that way they cant 'forget' to wear their star

That could work, maybe we could set up camps where they can all live together?

bit far mate

Karl_ wrote:Well, sounds fluid to me?...

I was indeed mixing them up (or using them synonymously). I fully understand the difference now - thanks. I’d only heard the term ‘fluid’ in relation to being non-binary, where gender can switch back and forth from one day to the next.

The condition of being intersex is interesting because, unlike identifying as male or female it seems more like something forced upon unsuspecting cis people, rather than something that they identify as? Or do people identify as intersex (rather than non-binary)? Case in point - Caster Semenya doesn’t identify as intersex, but has had that forced on her by authorities because of hormone levels.

Moggy wrote:

<]:^D wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:Slightly OT but I see the telegraph has run an op piece stating trans people should be made to carry ID cards

ID cards? But how can a member of the public tell who they are without having to ask?

Can’t we just make them wear stars so we can easily tell?

best option is a tattoo on a easily visible area - that way they cant 'forget' to wear their star

That could work, maybe we could set up camps where they can all live together?

I can see the potential for a scanning device (functionally like a tricorder, but preferably with intrusive Borg scan-beam that people flinch away from), which reveals someone’s precise sex, chromosomes, hormone levels, sexuality - everything. It could give precise readings (say, XX, 78% feminine, 80% biologically female, heterosexual). I call it the bio-gendifier.

mic wrote:The condition of being intersex is interesting because, unlike identifying as male or female it seems more like something forced upon unsuspecting cis people, rather than something that they identify as? Or do people identify as intersex (rather than non-binary)? Case in point - Caster Semenya doesn’t identify as intersex, but has had that forced on her by authorities because of hormone levels.

I think I see what you're saying - being intersex is a medical diagnosis, whereas being trans is part of your self-conceptualisation of gender identity (akin to a sexuality).

People don't choose or decide to be trans or nonbinary of course, but you typically either "just know" or "realise" you're trans in a similar way to realising you are gay or bisexual, whereas being intersex is something physiological that a doctor might tell you after a test.

The lines between the two are a little blurred in some ways because most trans people have (or at least would meet the criteria for) a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria isn't considered an intersex disorder, but it's a kind of medical diagnosis that covers the medical, psychological aspects of being trans (though it's not 100% universal, there are some trans people whose experiences don't match the medical criteria of gender dysphoria).

mic wrote:And in other news, trans woman Jessica Yaniv lost her bikini-wax case:

https://triblive.com/news/world/transge ... genitalia/

Sorry the links suck but I’m on my phone...

Edit: auto shrinking those lengthy links is a very cool feature

Lol, Yaniv is 100% a con artist. Contacted 15 different people who ran businesses from their homes and were in a lot of cases just starting, and brought them all to court. Very glad to see common sense prevailed and Yaniv got slapped with a hefty fine.

Im still reading a lot into this. Its a very interesting subject.
Gender Dysmorphia was classified as a mental disorder by the World Health Organisation in its International Classification of Diseases up until earlier this year when the ICD was revised.
This has now been removed as it only served to further stigmatise those with the condition.
Had I been aware of this review of the ICD I may not have been as quick to call it a mental illness in my earlier posts.
Ill continue to enlighten myself at my own pace. Its difficult to find information that is unbiased on the subject though, as I found out on here with people providing links to information that suited their opinion.
Im sure Green Gecko said he was close to banning me for the comments Id made on here. Very disappointing.
All I can do is try to learn.

Last weeks episode of South Park had a storyline with Randy Savage competing in women's sports. Worth watching for the nuance but here's a clip:

On a scale of one to ten how much of a reaction are you looking for sharing that clip?

And there you go, South Park in a nutshell. It's generally pretty a clever show, but hardly nuanced, somewhat glossing over the whole thing with populist humour because, well, it's a cartoon dudes, it's literally what they're for and they're good at making fun of everything with mild if obvious political irony.

Mommy wrote:Im sure Green Gecko said he was close to banning me for the comments Id made on here. Very disappointing.

I think the point here really is that I didn't do that, which is a sign of respect. It was brought to my attention that in a myriad of other online spaces it would be viewed pretty dimly.

I wasn't really taking umbrage with specifically classifying illness, more the frivolity in that specific sentence, which came across as insensitive and potentially really upsetting to trans people which, like, actually exist besides a simple "illness" and I try to do more on a small website like this compared to social media giants to safeguard. It read really cursory and slightly irritable as if you couldn't be bothered to consider if transexual people were anything more than deficient in some way. There is a lot more to divergent individuals of all kinds than a simple disease, even if that were true.

More than happy to look past it; as again, I did, but without making no comment, something I don't have to do (either way). It's pretty ironic that I get more people upset by effectively not banning them than anything else. You wouldn't believe how much flak I get for a simple warning, in many cases. That's what happens when you give people enough credit to talk out their opinions rather than using unilateral action; and it would be so much easier to do that and much more of a mere administrative exercise. It's based on the same principles of humanity that I choose to discuss conflicting opinions because I think the results are better than just turfing people out because you don't agree with what they think or how they said it.

I don't want to drag this out, but this isn't something you'd say openly to a person who has likely suffered a lot, right? The kind of people who get beaten within an inch of their life, tolerate horrible emotional abuse by their own friends and families, and are in some countries condemned to death (or until quite recently in this country, medically institutionalised or put through essentially brainwashing) or even hunted for sport. 100% that tone and nothing else is the key reason why I (and others) responded how I did.

"Oh but Im a woman now" - Bullshit. Youre a man who has had his pecker removed and has a mental health issue.

Obviously that kind of person needs to be treated with sensitivity - even if only a proportion of them suffer from the most horrible consequences of being themselves which, honestly, I couldn't give less of a gooseberry fool about provided they do just that and are allowed to do just that without harming anyone.

re: that clip

south park is extremely reactionary and consistently has reprehensible takes

"trans athletes are like macho man lol" isn't really discourse, is it? it's just stupid, shitty bullying

Green Gecko wrote:On a scale of one to ten how much of a reaction are you looking for sharing that clip?

And there you go, South Park in a nutshell. It's generally pretty a clever show, but hardly nuanced, somewhat glossing over the whole thing with populist humour because, well, it's a cartoon dudes, it's literally what they're for and they're good at making fun of everything with mild if obvious political irony.

Mommy wrote:Im sure Green Gecko said he was close to banning me for the comments Id made on here. Very disappointing.

I think the point here really is that I didn't do that, which is a sign of respect. It was brought to my attention that in a myriad of other online spaces it would be viewed pretty dimly.

I wasn't really taking umbrage with specifically classifying illness, more the frivolity in that specific sentence, which came across as insensitive and potentially really upsetting to trans people which, like, actually exist besides a simple "illness" and I try to do more on a small website like this compared to social media giants to safeguard. It read really cursory and slightly irritable as if you couldn't be bothered to consider if transexual people were anything more than deficient in some way. There is a lot more to divergent individuals of all kinds than a simple disease, even if that were true.

More than happy to look past it; as again, I did, but without making no comment, something I don't have to do (either way). It's pretty ironic that I get more people upset by effectively not banning them than anything else. You wouldn't believe how much flak I get for a simple warning, in many cases. That's what happens when you give people enough credit to talk out their opinions rather than using unilateral action; and it would be so much easier to do that and much more of a mere administrative exercise. It's based on the same principles of humanity that I choose to discuss conflicting opinions because I think the results are better than just turfing people out because you don't agree with what they think or how they said it.

I don't want to drag this out, but this isn't something you'd say openly to a person who has likely suffered a lot, right? The kind of people who get beaten within an inch of their life, tolerate horrible emotional abuse by their own friends and families, and are in some countries condemned to death (or until quite recently in this country, medically institutionalised or put through essentially brainwashing) or even hunted for sport. 100% that tone and nothing else is the key reason why I (and others) responded how I did.

"Oh but Im a woman now" - Bullshit. Youre a man who has had his pecker removed and has a mental health issue.

Obviously that kind of person needs to be treated with sensitivity - even if only a proportion of them suffer from the most horrible consequences of being themselves which, honestly, I couldn't give less of a gooseberry fool about provided they do just that and are allowed to do just that without harming anyone.

Ive thought long and hard about the points that youve made on this. You are right. My approach was too hardline but my general opinion was that you cant become something that you are not.
Ive realised that man and male and woman and female arent always the same thing.
I took on board the comments that you made and I am making a concious effort to understand these things a bit more.
Ive learned a lesson on this thread. Not a bad thing.

Now make the same effort in the politics thread.

Grumpy David wrote:Last weeks episode of South Park had a storyline with Randy Savage competing in women's sports. Worth watching for the nuance but here's a clip:

'The nuance', shut the strawberry float up

I like SP but that clip is just dumb as strawberry float. Obv you can't inject, claim to be a woman and compete. That is just stupid bullying, and lazy writing.

Yeah, I still enjoy South Park, but that latest episode was lazy, unfunny and preachy in a way they usually avoid.

I don't know how anyone still finds "I identify as X" jokes funny.

Grumpy David wrote:Last weeks episode of South Park had a storyline with Randy Savage competing in women's sports. Worth watching for the nuance but here's a clip:

nuance? Come on

I’m sorry but are some of you suggesting that Heather Swanson shouldn’t be able to compete just because she was born a male? Wow, I thought this was a progressive place.

well-known trans woman athlete Macho Man Randy Savage

Mommy wrote:Ive thought long and hard about the points that youve made on this. You are right. My approach was too hardline but my general opinion was that you cant become something that you are not.
Ive realised that man and male and woman and female arent always the same thing.
I took on board the comments that you made and I am making a concious effort to understand these things a bit more.
Ive learned a lesson on this thread. Not a bad thing.

look, this is a start, and good - it's about time you opened your mind a bit. you are correct to say that sex and gender are different phenomena, that is for sure important for understanding them. if that's helped you see why they don't always line up then great.

but your conclusion doesn't really reflect what was discussed in this thread. a really important point to understand is that our sex characteristics are largely determined by our sex hormones, and that most trans women will have hormone replacement therapy and become "biologically female" too. if your sex and gender don't line up, you can change your sex. if a trans woman has fully transitioned then she'll have breasts and a vagina, feminine skin and tissue density (e.g. wider eyes, check out this before and after), she will have removed her facial and body hair and trained her voice to have a feminine resonance.

most trans women - those who have come out and transitioned - simply aren't male any more. they are women and they are female.

i am not saying this as a far-left ideologue. i am a medical researcher, i am giving you this true, factual information as a scientist who studies the human body.

Scientist? Arent you like 13?

This is a good read -

https://afropunk.com/2019/06/gender-binary-sport/

It’s as if non-binary athletes don’t exist. The more I think about this the more it seems that the gender binary should just be removed from sport, with everyone allowed to compete. Im sure there are many sports in which women can do best.

Karl_ wrote:...most trans women - those who have come out and transitioned - simply aren't male any more. they are women and they are female...

...most trans women = women?