UK General Election 2015

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Denster** » Sun May 10, 2015 10:34 am

I've been a Tory all my teen and adult life. Was even in the Young conservatives. I've been in the NHS since Blair became PM. I've seen first hand what money the NHS has wasted at every level and the major effect of the money new Labour pumped into was to vastly Increase bureacacy, paperwork and management positions without any major increase of frontline staff numbers. I've seen this firstshand at the frontline where I work. Not in figures plucked from the Internet or elsewhere. The Nhs is a fine service unlike any other in the world but the way it wastes money would not be tolerated anywhere else in the world. At every level. In the last five years and the next - someone has finally said enough - we have to be more cost effective. About time.
It was a bloated, money pit. Now it has to run more efficiently. as a nurse and public sector worker - I acted by getting promoted and worked damned hard to improve my station and pay. A path that exists for lots of NhS employees. It's also a Tory policy of rewarding those who work to improve themselves - particularly in austere times.
As for my vote - I voted for the party with the bet chance of doing a decent job of running the country. Only ones who could just walked it.

Lagamorph wrote:
Fatal Exception wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Fatal Exception wrote:It's almost as if the left is progressive and the right want things to remain as they are or go back to how things were in the past

*edit*
Turns out Labour were reluctantly looking at electoral reform back in 1998 according to this retro BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/183879.stm

I'd hardly call vandalising war memorials and rioting in the streets 'progressive'

All sides agree that whoever did that is a fucktard of the highest order. 99.9999% of the protesters managed not to vandalise war memorials.

Just riot in the streets and injure multiple police officers who were trying to keep the peace then.

Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Fatal Exception wrote:It's almost as if the left is progressive and the right want things to remain as they are or go back to how things were in the past

*edit*
Turns out Labour were reluctantly looking at electoral reform back in 1998 according to this retro BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/183879.stm

I'd hardly call vandalising war memorials and rioting in the streets 'progressive'

Yes because those things are representative of people in the left.

It is if we use the same logic that the left have been using to describe the right lately (Tory voters should be ashamed, if you voted Tory you hate the disabled, etc).

It's really not the same logic at all.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Skarjo** » Sun May 10, 2015 10:41 am

Tafdolphin wrote:A member of the medicinal professions voting Tory has less legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man.

D... Don't we all have fewer legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man?

He doesn't strike me as a particular useful reference point when it comes to legs and the respective ability to stand on them.

Skarjo wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:A member of the medicinal professions voting Tory has less legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man.

D... Don't we all have fewer legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man?

He doesn't strike me as a particular useful reference point when it comes to legs and the respective ability to stand on them.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Randian

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Moggy** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:13 am

Lagamorph wrote:

Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Fatal Exception wrote:It's almost as if the left is progressive and the right want things to remain as they are or go back to how things were in the past

*edit*
Turns out Labour were reluctantly looking at electoral reform back in 1998 according to this retro BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/183879.stm

I'd hardly call vandalising war memorials and rioting in the streets 'progressive'

Yes because those things are representative of people in the left.

It is if we use the same logic that the left have been using to describe the right lately (Tory voters should be ashamed, if you voted Tory you hate the disabled, etc).

Again you are falling into the mistake that a few idiots in real life an a vocal minority on Twitter are somehow representative of the entire left.

If you really think that somebody vandalising a war memorial is representative of the left wing of British politics, then by your logic you will have to accept that far right groups like Britain First are representative of the right wing of British politics.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Dowbocop** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:20 am

@ Denny - I visited an out of hours GP run by a private company yesterday via NHS 111 (no idea whether NHS 111 booked me in or the private company, I was just called back by a receptionist). I was told to go to my local out of hours service, but then booked into a clinic 20 miles away and had to be squeezed in to my local service, so my appointment was delayed. It was also so understaffed that I nearly put my hand in a huge dried bloodstain when I lifted a toilet seat. There appeared to be no cleaner on hand to sort the infection risk out, and it was dried on so clearly wasn't being inspected regularly. This was not understaffing due to stretching of services, this was understaffing to run a service as cheaply as humanly possible.

So that's one (admittedly anecdotal, thankfully I'm not sick that often) case study of fragmented services reducing efficiency, and lowest bidder service provision causing risks to patient safety. I have complained, because I'd want to know if a patient experienced that in a clinic I ran.

I believe that the public sector should be open to constructive change and should strive to be a model of best practice for the private sector (practice what you preach etc). But top down reorganisation, consultancy fees, legal fees, and the like just take more money away from patient care in the same way excessive middle management does, but also adds the pressure of struggling to keep shareholders happy if the services go out to private firms.

The NHS could end up a bit like the rail network - ain't nobody want that :slol:

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Meep** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:21 am

I think the vitriol from some on the left is based on the assumption that everyone who voted Conservatives knows about the dire record they have on disabled and vulnerable people as well as the further negative measures they plan in that area and endorse them. In reality, those issues were probably far from Conservative voters minds when they crossed that box. Of course, you could argue that being unaware of such issues is itself a form of selfishness and disinterest but it's not the average person's fault if these issues were never brought to the fore during the campaign.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Errkal** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:21 am

Denster wrote:I've been a Tory all my teen and adult life. Was even in the Young conservatives. I've been in the NHS since Blair became PM. I've seen first hand what money the NHS has wasted at every level and the major effect of the money new Labour pumped into was to vastly Increase bureacacy, paperwork and management positions without any major increase of frontline staff numbers. I've seen this firstshand at the frontline where I work. Not in figures plucked from the Internet or elsewhere. The Nhs is a fine service unlike any other in the world but the way it wastes money would not be tolerated anywhere else in the world. At every level. In the last five years and the next - someone has finally said enough - we have to be more cost effective. About time.
It was a bloated, money pit. Now it has to run more efficiently. as a nurse and public sector worker - I acted by getting promoted and worked damned hard to improve my station and pay. A path that exists for lots of NhS employees. It's also a Tory policy of rewarding those who work to improve themselves - particularly in austere times.
As for my vote - I voted for the party with the bet chance of doing a decent job of running the country. Only ones who could just walked it.

Your on the front line so you get a different view, it was a bloated mess sure and the levels of middle management needed to be sorted, but that isn't really what has happened in a lot of back office areas.

In the areas I am in the cuts have decimated everything. Lots of of actual engineers and techies have been culled making tech support worse, and in terms of progression we now have none. The job I do I do on an Agenda for Change Band 5, I run 3 essential systems (I am the only one running them and has the knowledge to run them) one of which is used for out of hours Stroke diagnisis literally saving lives. Until 5 years ago the job was done by my Manager (he was given staff and the actual work has been moved down to us) on a band 8a.

Because of cuts they have just loaded the work onto "cheaper" staff to make it cheaper to run but the staff member gets all the stress and responsibility of the higher paid person having to deal with the customers and organisations.

It has led to a terrible work environment and a real feeling being taken for a ride but by not doing the job or working to my bad that is always the response from people it would have a real impact on 5 Acute Hospitals, 300 GP surgeries, 8 CCGs and 60 odd community sites.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by KK » Sun May 10, 2015 11:23 am

As Nick Hewer & Margaret Mountford found out when they did their railway documentary a few weeks ago on BBC2, the reason the rail network doesn't work properly is mostly down to the government (who still control the most important aspect of it) rather than privatisation. But it's easier to pass the buck and blame those big bad companies being strawberry floating useless.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Meep** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:36 am

@Errkal

I feel you buddy.

It's awful feeling that you are being taken for granted and being taken advantage of just to save money. My department is understaffed. We only allow one person on leave at a time but things like illness and family matters are unpredictable and when that happens things go to hell because even at full staff we are working flat out. In the bad weeks we have to do a lot of what amounts to unpaid overtime because if we do not finish our deadlines for that day outpatients in the hospital would effectively shut down the next. Recently the sewage system beneath our office has started to malfunction and waste water from the toilets in the wards above us regularly floods the office. Rather than fix the problem we are obliged to work around it while a cleaning crew comes to clear and disinfect the area whenever it becomes an issue again. Legally we would be allowed to walk out and but we are too soft; we know the impact it would have on patients and the higher ups know that we know this. It's horrible to feel your natural human compassion being manipulated in order to exploit you like that.

I also previously worked as an assistant to higher banded member of staff. They left and I got their duties. I did not get their title or their pay.

Election 2015: UKIP controls Thanet Council
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32672010?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_politics&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

BBC wrote:UKIP has won control of its first district council, Thanet in Kent - the area where the party's former leader, Nigel Farage, failed to become an MP.

UKIP won 33 seats, Conservatives 18, Labour four, and independents one - 29 seats were needed for a majority.

The party tweeted: "Thanet District Council has #GonePurple. First Authority in the United Kingdom to have a #UKIP majority!"

Ex-party leader Nigel Farage said: "I am not in the least bit surprised."

Mr Farage resigned as UKIP leader after failing to gain the parliamentary seat of Thanet South, losing to Conservative candidate Craig Mackinlay.

UKIP won a 13% vote share in the General Election and one MP, Douglas Carswell, held his Clacton seat.

But speaking after the council result, Mr Farage claimed: "What you have seen here is people voting with their heart, people voting for what they wanted to vote in.

"What you didn't see in the General Election was the same thing. What you saw was fear of the SNP."

UKIP deputy leader Suzanne Evans has been nominated by Nigel Farage to take over running the party after his resignation.

After the council declaration, she tweeted: "Beyond delighted to hear #UKIP have taken control of Thanet Borough Council. Many congratulations to our new Council team."

Labour lost 22 seats on the council and now holds just four.

Labour councillor Iris Johnston said: "They came out to vote UKIP because they felt [Nigel Farage] was a leader for them. On a personal level I have never had a problem with him but he never came to see me once when I was the leader and he has never brought a penny to Thanet."

The Conservatives were hoping to increase their share of the seats from 22 to gain control of the council. Instead they lost four.

Craig Mackinlay, Conservative MP for Thanet South said: "We have now got to hold their feet to the fire on a couple of their promises - that is: to support Manston and the local plan."

It was UKIP's commitment to reopen Manston Airport that helped to secure UKIP's victory at the council elections.

The airport closed in May 2014, seven months after being bought by Stagecoach Group co-founder Ann Gloag.

A majority stake was sold to Mr Cartner and Mr Musgrave for redevelopment several months later but the nature of the sale and the true ownership of the airport was called into question by a recent Commons Transport Select Committee.

Thanet District Council's recent past
December 2014 - Thanet councillors controversially voted against pursuing the compulsory purchase of Manston Airport
December 2014 - Almost half the council walked out of a meeting about Manston Airport
April 2014 - The council was warned over homophobic behaviour
The Labour leader of the council resigned because of "toxic behaviour" from "a minority of councillors"
November 2013 - An independent report said there was suspicion of "secrecy and corruption" at the council
December 2012 - The council was criticised as "dysfunctional" over the conduct of its councillors at meetings

Small consolation prize for UKIP.

Quite ironic too, that in this case, they benefited from FPTP. 36% of the vote got them well over 50% of the seats.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Errkal** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:50 am

Meep wrote:@Errkal

I feel you buddy. It's awful feeling that you are being taken for granted and being taken advantage of just to save money. My department is understaffed. We only allow one person on leave at a time but things like illness and family matters are unpredictable and when that happens things go to hell because even at full staff we are working flat out. In the bad weeks we have to do a lot of what amounts to unpaid overtime because if we do not finish our deadlines for that day outpatients in the hospital would effectively shut down the next. Recently the sewage system beneath our office has started to malfunction and waste water from the toilets in the wards above us regularly floods the office. Rather than fix the problem we are obliged to work around it while a cleaning crew comes to clear and disinfect the area whenever it becomes an issue again. Legally we would be allowed to walk out and but we are too soft; we know the impact it would have on patients and the higher ups know that we know this. It's horrible to feel your natural human compassion being manipulated in order to exploit you like that.

I also previously worked as an assistant to higher banded member of staff. They left and I got their duties. I did not get their title or their pay.

Glad it isn't just us it is happening to, that's the problem with the cuts and stuff they make it very unfair to the people doing the actual work, and they just flat ruled all departments x% must be saved regardless of if it was possible or needed etc.

We as an organisation before these cuts brought in about £5 million in income (from NHS but we were also NHS) and cost about £4 milion, we would then re-invest the rest in the IT infrastructure of our customers so that IT progressively improved, that isn't no possible so over all the area we cover is worse off.

There should have been some sort of commission or something that went from organisation to organisation and found where savings could be made rather than just making a flat out rule, that way were there was savings to made they could make them and leave things that worked in place.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Denster** » Sun May 10, 2015 12:09 pm

The problem with the IT side of things is not my area of expertise. I would say that for all the money spent - i still spend as much time on paperwork as when i was hand writing it. Obviously the collation of information has vastly improved and so has the accessibility - that's not what im saying - but as an example We are about to implement an new software for the patient record and it was very expensive and seems to be far more than what we actually need to do.

Too many management positions in any company results in role justifying actions and initiatives. The NHS has a lot of those. The streamlining of services is a necessity i'm afraid. Again though - i'm not an IT or logistics worker.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Tafdolphin** » Sun May 10, 2015 12:16 pm

Skarjo wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:A member of the medicinal professions voting Tory has less legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man.

D... Don't we all have fewer legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man?

He doesn't strike me as a particular useful reference point when it comes to legs and the respective ability to stand on them.

"Less useful then a cock flavoured dildo." I'd say most things are more useful than a cock flavoured dildo. What a useless reference point. Skarjo, you've opened my eyes. No more commonplace idiomatic similes for me!

Anyway,

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... kings-fund

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/george-osborne ... ge-1496047

I'll admit to relative ignorance in terms of general operating procedures within the NHS but I have at least 4 or 5 GPs active in my Facebook feed, all of whom were active campaigners against the Tories plans for the organisation. Funding is being cut to areas where it is most needed, essentially setting whole departments and health authorities up to fail so they can be held up as examples as why the system "as is" isn't working. Then of course, the corps step in.

I asked earlier in the thread why people who voted Tory voted Tory. I got 4 responses, one was a Cal non-answer and the other three were variations of "so Labour don't get in." I voted to the left because I believe in progressive politics. I believe taxes allow our welfare state to remain one of the envies of the world that it is and that the wealthy should be prepared to provide for those who would otherwise go without. The left's record on social policy is far and away beyond those of the right's, on gender and sexual equity, on military spending, on benefits and education. Just a few reasons why I voted Labour (that was a tactical vote in itself, in terms of policies in Green to the core).

So yeah, I ask again... Why did people who voted Tory, vote Tory?

I voted Labour in order to maintain moral high ground in political conversations with friends. In reality, as a healthy homeowner on a moderately decent income I am selfishly content to see a majority Conservative government come into power.

I'm even worse than outspoken Tory supporters. At least they're upfront about it.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Errkal** » Sun May 10, 2015 12:25 pm

Denster wrote:The problem with the IT side of things is not my area of expertise. I would say that for all the money spent - i still spend as much time on paperwork as when i was hand writing it. Obviously the collation of information has vastly improved and so has the accessibility - that's not what im saying - but as an example We are about to implement an new software for the patient record and it was very expensive and seems to be far more than what we actually need to do.

Too many management positions in any company results in role justifying actions and initiatives. The NHS has a lot of those. The streamlining of services is a necessity i'm afraid. Again though - i'm not an IT or logistics worker.

Streamlining make sense but in our case we already did it, we made sure we only had what we needed so these forced cuts as meant we are under staffed for what people want.

It stuff is expensive initially but brings savings in other areas.

For example, if doctors in hospitals had HP ElitePad Medical Tablets they could update their patient notes as they are with the patient on a tablet that connects wirelessly and can be wiped clean and steralised and can use NHS SmartCards etc. for Spine apps, they would then not need to write it all on paper then spend the afternoon updating it on the system, they would be able to see at least half again the number of patients and patient care improves, they wouldn't be writing it all on paper which in turn reduces the risk of patient data showing up somewhere by them dropping something or not shredding it right away, they are also inputting data directly not a couple of hours after having taken the notes so there is less margin for error.

So from the initial investment they have a better throughput that than without without it, but there isn't a cost saving to be had as such so the idea is shot down because of new mentality unless it has a physical cost saving it doesn't count as a benefit because time savings and people hours aren't taken into consideration.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Eighthours** » Sun May 10, 2015 12:54 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
Skarjo wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:A member of the medicinal professions voting Tory has less legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man.

D... Don't we all have fewer legs to stand on than The Caterpillar Man?

He doesn't strike me as a particular useful reference point when it comes to legs and the respective ability to stand on them.

"Less useful then a cock flavoured dildo." I'd say most things are more useful than a cock flavoured dildo. What a useless reference point. Skarjo, you've opened my eyes. No more commonplace idiomatic similes for me!

Anyway,

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... kings-fund

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/george-osborne ... ge-1496047

I'll admit to relative ignorance in terms of general operating procedures within the NHS but I have at least 4 or 5 GPs active in my Facebook feed, all of whom were active campaigners against the Tories plans for the organisation. Funding is being cut to areas where it is most needed, essentially setting whole departments and health authorities up to fail so they can be held up as examples as why the system "as is" isn't working. Then of course, the corps step in.

I asked earlier in the thread why people who voted Tory voted Tory. I got 4 responses, one was a Cal non-answer and the other three were variations of "so Labour don't get in." I voted to the left because I believe in progressive politics. I believe taxes allow our welfare state to remain one of the envies of the world that it is and that the wealthy should be prepared to provide for those who would otherwise go without. The left's record on social policy is far and away beyond those of the right's, on gender and sexual equity, on military spending, on benefits and education. Just a few reasons why I voted Labour (that was a tactical vote in itself, in terms of policies in Green to the core).

So yeah, I ask again... Why did people who voted Tory, vote Tory?

Mate, the wealthy already provide. The top 1% pay nearly 30% of all tax in this country. The top 10% pay 55% of all tax. And here's a really good one for you: the top 0.1% pay 11.3% of all tax.

It's a complete and total myth that the rich don't 'provide for those who would otherwise go without'.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by **Rocsteady** » Sun May 10, 2015 12:58 pm

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I voted Labour in order to maintain moral high ground in political conversations with friends. In reality, as a healthy homeowner on a moderately decent income I am selfishly content to see a majority Conservative government come into power.

I'm even worse than outspoken Tory supporters. At least they're upfront about it.

Denster wrote:I've been a Tory all my teen and adult life. Was even in the Young conservatives. I've been in the NHS since Blair became PM. I've seen first hand what money the NHS has wasted at every level and the major effect of the money new Labour pumped into was to vastly Increase bureacacy, paperwork and management positions without any major increase of frontline staff numbers. I've seen this firstshand at the frontline where I work. Not in figures plucked from the Internet or elsewhere. The Nhs is a fine service unlike any other in the world but the way it wastes money would not be tolerated anywhere else in the world. At every level. In the last five years and the next - someone has finally said enough - we have to be more cost effective. About time.
It was a bloated, money pit. Now it has to run more efficiently. as a nurse and public sector worker - I acted by getting promoted and worked damned hard to improve my station and pay. A path that exists for lots of NhS employees. It's also a Tory policy of rewarding those who work to improve themselves - particularly in austere times.

As for my vote - I voted for the party with the bet chance of doing a decent job of running the country. Only ones who could just walked it.

Well, that's me convinced.

'Figures plucked from the internet' - or, put in a different way, objective studies carried out - can be ignored because some random incessant gloater on the internet works in healthcare and sees things differently.

I've worked in plenty of different private and public sector roles the last few years and don't claim to be some expert on any aspect of policy due to very localised first hand experiences. Because I'm not a strawberry floating moron.

Numerous studies rank the NHS as the best - or very close to the best - healthcare system pound for pound in the world. So your protestations about wastage of money are complete bollocks.

degoose wrote:Obviously from reading on here and across the media and internet Labour supporters don't seem to have much class.

What a knob. Thankfully I didn't vote Labour so you can't mindlessly categorise me with 9 million other people.

PostRe: UK General Election 2015 by KK » Sun May 10, 2015 1:19 pm

Personally I happen to think the tax rate for the richest in this country is/was high enough already at 45/50%. Of far more importance are big companies & various individuals using loopholes to get out of paying tax. And then there are companies like Apple sitting on mind boggling sums of money who could easily start doing more. Not because they have to, they don't, but Christ they could certainly be putting more back in to communities.

While it is rather disgusting seeing the likes of Wayne Rooney earning more in a week than a lot of people will see in 10 years, a whopping £160,000 of that is still going to the tax man. And you can't say that isn't anything but fair.

Denster wrote:The problem with the IT side of things is not my area of expertise. I would say that for all the money spent - i still spend as much time on paperwork as when i was hand writing it. Obviously the collation of information has vastly improved and so has the accessibility - that's not what im saying - but as an example We are about to implement an new software for the patient record and it was very expensive and seems to be far more than what we actually need to do.

Too many management positions in any company results in role justifying actions and initiatives. The NHS has a lot of those. The streamlining of services is a necessity i'm afraid. Again though - i'm not an IT or logistics worker.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the NHS didn't need streamlining, Labour's problem was they just threw money at problems in the hope it went away. What I and many other people object to is private companies taking over parts of the NHS.

UK General Election 2015

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