Ukraine illegally invaded by Putin's Russia

LewisD wrote:Could someone explain "Sanctions" to me, as though you would a five year old please. Apologies if this makes me sound utterly stupid, but I've never really understood what they are for, or achieve in times like this.

Is it like "oh, you've been naughty - we're telling all the countries not to sell you anymore Haribo Tangfastics or BIC pens" ?

Because surely Russia can play the reverse Uno card and refuse to sell, I dunno, oil to any country that allows sanctions against them?

There's also a lot of financial benefits Russia gets through various hubs, London being one of them. I imagine the UK would seize all Russian citizen's UK assets and stop all transactions and deals going through the city.

I don't know exactly how hard that will hit them, but it would have an effect of some kind. Plus it would seriously piss off a lot of influential, powerful Russians.

That makes more sense than my plan to withhold sour sweets and ball paint pens. Thank you

LewisD wrote:That makes more sense than my plan to withhold sour sweets and ball paint pens. Thank you

Your point about them being able to do the same is correct, but bear in mind that would see all the other countries being 'punished' by one country (albeit a big bastard), while the one country is being 'punished' by a large alliance of countries, so it is clearly much more damaging to them than it is to the other countries as individuals.

Imrahil wrote:There's also a lot of financial benefits Russia gets through various hubs, London being one of them. I imagine the UK would seize all Russian citizen's UK assets and stop all transactions and deals going through the city.

I don't know exactly how hard that will hit them, but it would have an effect of some kind. Plus it would seriously piss off a lot of influential, powerful Russians.

Why would the tory party want to piss off some of their biggest donors?

VlaSoul wrote:
To be honest I don't like the ukrainian government at all either, nor the frankly massive presence of fascism and naziism in the country, but ultimately a people should have the right to self govern. I don't like how that idea has played out in the modern world, but I agree it's an important principle that should be upheld.

Russia says this a lot but I haven't seen any evidence that there's any more fascists and nazis in Ukraine than Russia.

Rocsteady wrote:But one is much more morally upstanding than the other. To equate the two is disingenuous bullshit.

Poland isn't much behind the Ukraine in democratic indices but were Russian armies to be sat at the border, I'd be pretty pissed at suggestions that either way, we're strawberry floated. I would very much take the 'liberal capitalist hegemony' that involves some free media and a democratic vote every few years than the totalitarian alternative we've seen recently in Belarus where I know people who have been tortured and had family locked up for attending protests.

It's easy to sit from the UK and say we shouldn't pick sides but we absolutely should. Ukraine's political system is far from perfect but it's a strawberry floating hell of a lot better than the current alternative. And right now, those are the two options. If you feel strongly about Ukranian democracy once this crisis is over give me a shout and we can attend pro-democracy protests in CE/EE together.

I don't find liberal democracy made to uphold corporate capitalism to be a superior alternative to authoritarianism or limited/localised democracy, human suffering is at best just outsourced to poorer countries or in the case of ukraine wont be outsourced at all, and policy is decided by the interests of capital as opposed to by the people. Any democracy in these systems is largely a facade. These are the beliefs I have and I would be a hypocrite if I suddenly turned face and went in full support for NATO. NATO is not more morally upstanding, as I said this is just oppourtunistic political maneuvering that may or may not result in an outwardly better outcome.

For the record though, I am opposed to the war itself/russia escalating the conflict. Also I'm not sure what CE/EE is

Not equating two things doesn't mean you must support one of them, just that forced into the choice you would pick the least bad. I think you're completely wrong to say authoritarianism is no worse than western liberal democracies. You can think that and still be critical of liberal democracies you know.

LewisD wrote:Could someone explain "Sanctions" to me, as though you would a five year old please. Apologies if this makes me sound utterly stupid, but I've never really understood what they are for, or achieve in times like this.

Is it like "oh, you've been naughty - we're telling all the countries not to sell you anymore Haribo Tangfastics or BIC pens" ?

Because surely Russia can play the reverse Uno card and refuse to sell, I dunno, oil to any country that allows sanctions against them?

Yes to all of that.

But it'd hurt Russia twice. The trade and financial sanctions would cripple their economy. And them refusing to sell gas/oil to other nations will only hurt them economically even further.

VlaSoul wrote:I don't find liberal democracy made to uphold corporate capitalism to be a superior alternative to authoritarianism or limited/localised democracy

Huh? How'd you like it, man? They tell you all the time what to do, what to think, what to feel. Do you wanna be like a sheep? Like all those other people? Baah! Baah!

You wanna work eight, ten strawberry floating hours? You own nothing, you got nothing! Do you want a chivato on every corner looking after you? Watching everything you do? Everything you say, man? Do you know I eat octopus three times a day? I got strawberry floating octopus coming out of my strawberry floating ears. I got the strawberry floatin' Russian shoes my feet's comin' through. How you like that? What, you want me to stay there and do nothing?

Tony had it right

Memento Mori wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:
To be honest I don't like the ukrainian government at all either, nor the frankly massive presence of fascism and naziism in the country, but ultimately a people should have the right to self govern. I don't like how that idea has played out in the modern world, but I agree it's an important principle that should be upheld.

Russia says this a lot but I haven't seen any evidence that there's any more fascists and nazis in Ukraine than Russia.

Ukraine was known to have a lot of nazi collaborators during the war, and a lot of them just defected back to russia and pretended to not be nazis after the war ended. The Ukranians are one of those peoples that unfortunately really suffered under the USSR and historically russia in general, so naziism remained a popular ideology for them after the war as it was a chance to break free from their historical oppressors; like how Subhas Chandra Bose is still fairly popular in India despite allying with the nazis.

This dude was one of the founders of a major neo-nazi political party and has served a number of prominent roles in the ukrainian government both before and during the war. That party and its successor have seen electoral success at various points since. He's not the only one to have held significant office since 2014.

There were a number of neo nazi militias operating in Ukraine especially when the war started. The Azov Battalion comes to mind, and this one was folded into the ukranian army a couple years back. Ultimately this kind of thing is sadly inevitable when a country is being invaded by a foreign and unwanted oppressor, and we have to consider that the one time that ukraine was free of russia's grip in the last 800 years was when the nazis occupied them. Ukraine is in general nationalist and is currently ruled over by a right wing party with nationalist views.

OrangeRKN wrote:Not equating two things doesn't mean you must support one of them, just that forced into the choice you would pick the least bad. I think you're completely wrong to say authoritarianism is no worse than western liberal democracies. You can think that and still be critical of liberal democracies you know.

There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba, or Sankara's (murdered by western democracies) Burkina Faso. Even Gaddaffi for his many, many flaws and rights abuses must be given credit for building what was one of the most fair states to ever exist in Africa. Though that being said of course I cannot discount the numerous times where auth states have proved themselves worse. Democracy has existed in my country since decolonisation but it's just used to advance the interests of the rich whites and indians while holding down the black minority.

Maybe these states aren't truly authoritarian, idk, they've all had forms of local democracy
I don't have much hope for the NATO backed ukraine I guess, but maybe you guys are right and it'll turn out better

I'm really surprised the Kremlin is bothering to pay to publicise its talking points on GRACDE.....

This reads as so painfully naive to me that I'm not sure how to respond. To equate a nation where you can summarily be thrown in prison for speaking out, tortured, disappeared, family members punished through no fault of their own, endemic corruption beyond anything imaginable in current Ukraine, as equal to a flawed democratic state... how? In what way is Russia running a superior system that makes up for the aforementioned?

Ukraine does have strong nationalist tendencies, with some neo-nazi elements in more prominent positions than is desirable. That's the case for a lot of Eastern Europe (EE) and Russia, unfortunately. Not sure how that's an argument that authoritarianism is equal to the current system where they voted in the relatively more liberal Zelensky with the vast majority of the vote against the incumbent.

Cuba is a model in a couple of metrics and nothing more. Has it proven itself superior to any western European democracy? Not sure I would've liked to be gay there for any of the past decades. Or have a penchant for food with multiple ingredients. Or have a desire to be one of any number of professions that aren't viable or not allowed. gooseberry fool, you still can't even become a pro boxer there.

Ecno wrote:I'm really surprised the Kremlin is bothering to pay to publicise its talking points on GRACDE.....

This post wins

I couldn't believe what I was reading but this now makes it so clear.

VlaSoul wrote:

Memento Mori wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:
To be honest I don't like the ukrainian government at all either, nor the frankly massive presence of fascism and naziism in the country, but ultimately a people should have the right to self govern. I don't like how that idea has played out in the modern world, but I agree it's an important principle that should be upheld.

Russia says this a lot but I haven't seen any evidence that there's any more fascists and nazis in Ukraine than Russia.

Ukraine was known to have a lot of nazi collaborators during the war, and a lot of them just defected back to russia and pretended to not be nazis after the war ended. The Ukranians are one of those peoples that unfortunately really suffered under the USSR and historically russia in general, so naziism remained a popular ideology for them after the war as it was a chance to break free from their historical oppressors; like how Subhas Chandra Bose is still fairly popular in India despite allying with the nazis.

This dude was one of the founders of a major neo-nazi political party and has served a number of prominent roles in the ukrainian government both before and during the war. That party and its successor have seen electoral success at various points since. He's not the only one to have held significant office since 2014.

There were a number of neo nazi militias operating in Ukraine especially when the war started. The Azov Battalion comes to mind, and this one was folded into the ukranian army a couple years back. Ultimately this kind of thing is sadly inevitable when a country is being invaded by a foreign and unwanted oppressor, and we have to consider that the one time that ukraine was free of russia's grip in the last 800 years was when the nazis occupied them. Ukraine is in general nationalist and is currently ruled over by a right wing party with nationalist views.

OrangeRKN wrote:Not equating two things doesn't mean you must support one of them, just that forced into the choice you would pick the least bad. I think you're completely wrong to say authoritarianism is no worse than western liberal democracies. You can think that and still be critical of liberal democracies you know.

There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba, or Sankara's (murdered by western democracies) Burkina Faso. Even Gaddaffi for his many, many flaws and rights abuses must be given credit for building what was one of the most fair states to ever exist in Africa. Though that being said of course I cannot discount the numerous times where auth states have proved themselves worse. Democracy has existed in my country since decolonisation but it's just used to advance the interests of the rich whites and indians while holding down the black minority.

Maybe these states aren't truly authoritarian, idk, they've all had forms of local democracy
I don't have much hope for the NATO backed ukraine I guess, but maybe you guys are right and it'll turn out better

What reforms would you like to see performed by the Ukranian government before you decide that normal everyday Ukranian citizens do not deserve to become victims of foreign aggression?

VlaSoul wrote:Even Gaddaffi for his many, many flaws and rights abuses must be given credit for building what was one of the most fair states to ever exist in Africa.

Yeah, if you ignore the rape, the murder, the brutal suppression of human rights, the absolute poverty, the lack of democracy and the terrorism, then Gaddaffi was basically the nicest man that ever lived.

Imrahil wrote:
I don't know exactly how hard that will hit them, but it would have an effect of some kind. Plus it would seriously piss off a lot of influential, powerful Russians.

Anything that pisses off influential, powerful Russians has to be considered an act of heroism.

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:Even Gaddaffi for his many, many flaws and rights abuses must be given credit for building what was one of the most fair states to ever exist in Africa.

Yeah, if you ignore the rape, the murder, the brutal suppression of human rights, the absolute poverty, the lack of democracy and the terrorism, then Gaddaffi was basically the nicest man that ever lived.

I mean, he's not wrong. In Libya, everyone got to suffer, it was totally fair

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:Even Gaddaffi for his many, many flaws and rights abuses must be given credit for building what was one of the most fair states to ever exist in Africa.

Yeah, if you ignore the rape, the murder, the brutal suppression of human rights, the absolute poverty, the lack of democracy and the terrorism, then Gaddaffi was basically the nicest man that ever lived.

Gaddaffi was over thrown because the Libyan central bank was only one of 3 which were not owned by the Rothschilds

VlaSoul wrote:There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba,

Been beaten almost to death by the security forces because you said something political? Good news, there's excellent healthcare to rebuild your shattered body!

Been imprisoned for life for publishing something critical of the ruling dictatorship? Good news, your education will have been good enough for you to do complicated sums in your head to keep yourself entertained during your time in your dark and filthy cell!

Say what you like about Gaddaffi, but he made human rights abuses run on time