Re: Ukraine
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:20 pm
Everyone: "The world has gone to gooseberry fool thanks to covid, can things possibly get any worse?"
Russia: "Hold my beer"
Russia: "Hold my beer"
LewisD wrote:Unfortunately I live a stone's throw from AWE where they make all the trident missiles.. they'll definitely target that in the event of war meaning I'm toast within minutes.
LewisD wrote:Unfortunately I live a stone's throw from AWE where they make all the trident missiles.. they'll definitely target that in the event of war meaning I'm toast within minutes.
Alvin Flummux wrote:So, they want to seize half of Ukraine, and half of Kyiv, because they're feeling insecure about a border they share with a peaceful neighbor? Seriously? What a pathetic excuse.
What's next, expanding up to the Carpathian Mountains just because that's a bit more defensible?
Imrahil wrote:LewisD wrote:Unfortunately I live a stone's throw from AWE where they make all the trident missiles.. they'll definitely target that in the event of war meaning I'm toast within minutes.
I'm within the blast radius of an airbase, so I'll be getting the deckchairs out for a nice instant suntan.![]()
Fortunately, the chances of anything like that happening are so miniscule. All NATO can do is leave them to it and let the world sanction Russia indefinitely until they return the territory to Ukraine.
It's going to be a mess for the Russian army if they go through with it. From what I've read, the Ukrainian army is much better prepared compared to Crimea in 2014. How it will play out is anyone's guess at the moment.
Herdanos wrote:VlaSoul, do you recognise the right of self-determination and do you agree that it applies to the Ukrainian people?
VlaSoul wrote:Alvin Flummux wrote:So, they want to seize half of Ukraine, and half of Kyiv, because they're feeling insecure about a border they share with a peaceful neighbor? Seriously? What a pathetic excuse.
What's next, expanding up to the Carpathian Mountains just because that's a bit more defensible?
Who's the peaceful neighbor? Even then I don't think that's the right way to look at it; Russia is close to the EU which in the event of war or even trade sanctions forms a united front against them, and if they wanted to invade they'd only have to traverse flat ground. It's fine when they have buffer states like ukraine and belarus, but if ukraine shifts towards NATO and the EU there is a very easy path into russia from them for NATO forces.
A stronger russia then means more defensible borders, warm sea ports, and reclaiming their lost industry, all of which are provided by ukraine. This would presumably grant russia more weight on the world stage in order to stand aside china and america, which are currently far ahead of them as they already have these things (among other reasons ofc).Imrahil wrote:LewisD wrote:Unfortunately I live a stone's throw from AWE where they make all the trident missiles.. they'll definitely target that in the event of war meaning I'm toast within minutes.
I'm within the blast radius of an airbase, so I'll be getting the deckchairs out for a nice instant suntan.![]()
Fortunately, the chances of anything like that happening are so miniscule. All NATO can do is leave them to it and let the world sanction Russia indefinitely until they return the territory to Ukraine.
It's going to be a mess for the Russian army if they go through with it. From what I've read, the Ukrainian army is much better prepared compared to Crimea in 2014. How it will play out is anyone's guess at the moment.
Well Ukraine certainly has the manpower after they incorporated the neo nazi militias into their standing military
Also again yeah ukraine is hugely industrialised so their production of war material would probably outpace what the russians are capable of especially when pushed into a corner
VlaSoul wrote:Herdanos wrote:VlaSoul, do you recognise the right of self-determination and do you agree that it applies to the Ukrainian people?
Perhaps it appears I am in support of the russians?
I do not, to be clear, I just find the reasons behind this situation interesting and I'm not a huge fan of the way the general discourse surrounding it has developed (same to discourse on all enemies of the west)
To be honest I don't like the ukrainian government at all either, nor the frankly massive presence of fascism and naziism in the country, but ultimately a people should have the right to self govern. I don't like how that idea has played out in the modern world, but I agree it's an important principle that should be upheld.
Preezy wrote:So... chances of this being a World War 3 flashpoint?
andretmzt wrote:I think it was also a very important area for food production in the Soviet Union, but who knows whether having food security into the future is part of Russia's thinking.
Rocsteady wrote:The first question you ask is a weird one to even being up in the current geopolitical climate; quite obviously it's the Ukraine. Are you arguing the answer to the question could be Russia?
Rocsteady wrote:VlaSoul wrote:Herdanos wrote:VlaSoul, do you recognise the right of self-determination and do you agree that it applies to the Ukrainian people?
Perhaps it appears I am in support of the russians?
I do not, to be clear, I just find the reasons behind this situation interesting and I'm not a huge fan of the way the general discourse surrounding it has developed (same to discourse on all enemies of the west)
To be honest I don't like the ukrainian government at all either, nor the frankly massive presence of fascism and naziism in the country, but ultimately a people should have the right to self govern. I don't like how that idea has played out in the modern world, but I agree it's an important principle that should be upheld.
I'm trying to fully understand your position; how should the discourse have developed?
Were the US to sit over 100,000 troops on the border of a sovereign nation in preparation for an invasion, would you also be posting only on the media discourse of the massed troops or would you be feeling outraged at the pressure said nation was being put under?
Grumpy David wrote:Russia should be much more concerned by the land border it shares with China rather than any land border in Europe. How does a country thousands of miles away from the Artic call itself a "Near Artic Power" if it doesn't include taking a chunk of Siberia?
Grumpy David wrote:How does a country thousands of miles away from the Artic call itself a "Near Artic Power"
Vermilion wrote:Grumpy David wrote:How does a country thousands of miles away from the Artic call itself a "Near Artic Power"
Someone's been watching The Apprentice.
Knoyleo wrote:Vermilion wrote:Grumpy David wrote:How does a country thousands of miles away from the Artic call itself a "Near Artic Power"
Someone's been watching The Apprentice.
Maybe he means this kind of artic power...
VlaSoul wrote:Rocsteady wrote:The first question you ask is a weird one to even being up in the current geopolitical climate; quite obviously it's the Ukraine. Are you arguing the answer to the question could be Russia?
Oh, genuinely I thought they meant poland or romaniaRocsteady wrote:VlaSoul wrote:Herdanos wrote:VlaSoul, do you recognise the right of self-determination and do you agree that it applies to the Ukrainian people?
Perhaps it appears I am in support of the russians?
I do not, to be clear, I just find the reasons behind this situation interesting and I'm not a huge fan of the way the general discourse surrounding it has developed (same to discourse on all enemies of the west)
To be honest I don't like the ukrainian government at all either, nor the frankly massive presence of fascism and naziism in the country, but ultimately a people should have the right to self govern. I don't like how that idea has played out in the modern world, but I agree it's an important principle that should be upheld.
I'm trying to fully understand your position; how should the discourse have developed?
Were the US to sit over 100,000 troops on the border of a sovereign nation in preparation for an invasion, would you also be posting only on the media discourse of the massed troops or would you be feeling outraged at the pressure said nation was being put under?
This is another heavily propagandised war where the very real human tragedy of the situation is leveraged for political maneuvering by the would be allies of the victim, in that NATO would use Ukraine as a foothold against their enemies, in this case russia, as it stands as a threat to the
liberal capitalist hegemony they (NATO) uphold. Be it russian occupation or ukrainian control restored, either way the ukrainian people themselves would be living under a non-democratic and borderline facsist regime, which would be promptly ignored by the wider world in the latter outcome. One side here is framed as morally upstanding while the other isn't, and I think that's a fundamentally incorrect way to look at geopolitics in general.