US Politics 2

Jenuall wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:

Tomous wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:Even if the guards saw that he was trying to kill himself and decided not to intervene (or killed him), it doesn't mean that there was a conspiracy. Maybe he was being a dick and they just killed him, maybe they thought he was a rich pedo and deserved to die. There are possibilities that don't include large conspiracies.

People's who job it is to literally to stop someone killing themselves don't let them kill themselves because they think they're a bit of a dick or they don't like them. They're not gonna put their jobs on their line like that.

"Sorry honey, we can't afford rent this month but that guy really was a twat".

A couple of people have been fired because of his death so that's happened whatever.

Jenuall wrote:Epstein genuinely committing suicide is a narrative that absolutely scans yes - he was facing a horrible life in prison so I can see plenty of reasons to kill yourself.

But that's why he was on suicide watch. It's not suspicious that he might have killed himself per se, it's that we was allowed to do it that doesn't read right.

He wasn't on suicide watch when he killed himself although had only been off suicide watch for 12 days when it happened.

That's why I said he was on suicide watch. The questions are why was he taken off it when it was clearly still a risk, and why the guards still failed to do the required checks on him even after he was taken of it.

There is a massive issue with people committing suicide in US prisons. It's not just Billionaire pedo's that are being failed.

https://www.vox.com/2019/8/14/20802292/ ... il-problem

Every year, more than 300 people die by suicide in jails, according to the Vera Institute of Justice. Those in jail are seven times more likely to die by suicide than those in prisons. The first few weeks are crucial: A quarter of these people kill themselves in the first 24 hours, and half die within two weeks.

Part of this is because of the “shock of confinement” when an individual is initially taken into jail. The feeling of having lost a sense of normalcy can often be traumatic and push inmates to make drastic decisions.

Lex-Man wrote:

Jenuall wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:

Tomous wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:Even if the guards saw that he was trying to kill himself and decided not to intervene (or killed him), it doesn't mean that there was a conspiracy. Maybe he was being a dick and they just killed him, maybe they thought he was a rich pedo and deserved to die. There are possibilities that don't include large conspiracies.

People's who job it is to literally to stop someone killing themselves don't let them kill themselves because they think they're a bit of a dick or they don't like them. They're not gonna put their jobs on their line like that.

"Sorry honey, we can't afford rent this month but that guy really was a twat".

A couple of people have been fired because of his death so that's happened whatever.

Jenuall wrote:Epstein genuinely committing suicide is a narrative that absolutely scans yes - he was facing a horrible life in prison so I can see plenty of reasons to kill yourself.

But that's why he was on suicide watch. It's not suspicious that he might have killed himself per se, it's that we was allowed to do it that doesn't read right.

He wasn't on suicide watch when he killed himself although had only been off suicide watch for 12 days when it happened.

That's why I said he was on suicide watch. The questions are why was he taken off it when it was clearly still a risk, and why the guards still failed to do the required checks on him even after he was taken of it.

There is a massive issue with people committing suicide in US prisons. It's not just Billionaire pedo's that are being failed.

https://www.vox.com/2019/8/14/20802292/ ... il-problem

Every year, more than 300 people die by suicide in jails, according to the Vera Institute of Justice. Those in jail are seven times more likely to die by suicide than those in prisons. The first few weeks are crucial: A quarter of these people kill themselves in the first 24 hours, and half die within two weeks.

Part of this is because of the “shock of confinement” when an individual is initially taken into jail. The feeling of having lost a sense of normalcy can often be traumatic and push inmates to make drastic decisions.

I don't doubt it, the state is clearly failing badly in this regard.

Ideally the resources, training, facilities etc. would all be sufficient that this never happens, but sadly we are a long way from that place. And in the here and now, like it or not, it might have been prudent to put just that little bit of extra effort into making sure that the key to a billionaire paedophile ring didn't commit suicide.

Everything I've ever seen about US prison makes it look strawberry floating awful.
I know prison isn't supposed to be nice but they seem designed to crush everyone. It's dehumanising to a shocking degree and they seem to think that everyone in prison is fair game for brutal treatment and anything that isn't ultra depressing is seen as a luxury that many Americans seem to think is completely unacceptable.

It seems to be a common theme among US conservatives that everyone in prison deserves to be treated like gooseberry fool and any argument about prisoners rights is seen as being soft on crime. It's also why it's so easy to be sent to prison in the US in the first place as governors can set local laws and many run on a platform of being ultra tough on crime. It's why the US has the world highest prison population with so many of massively inflated sentences.

Peter Crisp wrote:It seems to be a common theme among US conservatives that everyone in prison deserves to be treated like gooseberry fool and any argument about prisoners rights is seen as being soft on crime.

It's exactly the same here, had plenty of "conversations" with people at work that think prisoners are there to be punished, not rehabilitated.

The high-security Metropolitan Correctional Center has not had a successful suicide since 1998. The prison's protocol was that guards do a check every 30 minutes, but both of the two guards "fell asleep". He was supposed to have a cell-mate but he was transferred to a different cell without explanation.

I don't really think he was taken out Sam Fisher style, but the only way I can read all of this is that circumstances were arranged that allowed him to kill himself, and I think he would have been under immense pressure to do so.

Karl_ wrote:but the only way I can read all of this is that circumstances were arranged that allowed him to kill himself, and I think he would have been under immense pressure to do so.

What pressure could be applied to someone that was going to prison for the rest of their life?

"You'd better kill yourself or we'll all get in trouble and you'll get even more of a life sentence!"

I don't get it.

Preezy wrote:"You'd better kill yourself or we'll all get in trouble and you'll get even more of a life sentence!"

I don't get it.

I mean, I'm not going to write out extensive Jeffrey Epstein getting blackmailed fan-fiction for you, but it could have been along the lines of: "If you kill yourself to protect our paedophile conspiracy, we'll look after the people you care about. If you don't, we'll make their lives hell, and we'll make your life in prison even worse than it would have been by paying off guards and other prisoners to torture you."

It's obviously impossible to know now. The alternative I guess you're thinking is that he didn't need convincing, he wanted to end it, right? But then he's still clearly had help from his billionaire buddies to arrange for Doofus and Goofus the narcoleptic prison guards to be on duty and take a nice long nap while he fashions a noose with the sheets he shouldn't have had in his private cell that wasn't supposed to be empty.

Gotta love a conspiracy

But yeah, good points well made.

Preezy wrote:Gotta love a conspiracy

But yeah, good points well made.

I'm not usually a conspiracy person, I promise. I'm clearly a bit unhinged but not that unhinged.

But here, it's just like... I'm just saying, it's really convenient for a lot of very rich and powerful people that he died. I just can't accept it's all coincidence.

Preezy wrote:

Karl_ wrote:but the only way I can read all of this is that circumstances were arranged that allowed him to kill himself, and I think he would have been under immense pressure to do so.

What pressure could be applied to someone that was going to prison for the rest of their life?

"You'd better kill yourself or we'll all get in trouble and you'll get even more of a life sentence!"

I don't get it.

“You know we can put you in a really horrible prison amongst the general population?”

“You know that money you’ve left for your family...yeah we can take that”

It’s actually simpler than that though, Epstein like a lot of prisoners was probably already suicidal, it really wouldn’t wouldn’t take much to persuade him, or set up the means for him to do it.

Karl_ wrote:I'm just saying, it's really convenient for a lot of very rich and powerful people that he died.

I guess you could say Jeffrey died for their sins?

Jenuall wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:

Tomous wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:Even if the guards saw that he was trying to kill himself and decided not to intervene (or killed him), it doesn't mean that there was a conspiracy. Maybe he was being a dick and they just killed him, maybe they thought he was a rich pedo and deserved to die. There are possibilities that don't include large conspiracies.

People's who job it is to literally to stop someone killing themselves don't let them kill themselves because they think they're a bit of a dick or they don't like them. They're not gonna put their jobs on their line like that.

"Sorry honey, we can't afford rent this month but that guy really was a twat".

A couple of people have been fired because of his death so that's happened whatever.

Jenuall wrote:Epstein genuinely committing suicide is a narrative that absolutely scans yes - he was facing a horrible life in prison so I can see plenty of reasons to kill yourself.

But that's why he was on suicide watch. It's not suspicious that he might have killed himself per se, it's that we was allowed to do it that doesn't read right.

He wasn't on suicide watch when he killed himself although had only been off suicide watch for 12 days when it happened.

That's why I said he was on suicide watch. The questions are why was he taken off it when it was clearly still a risk, and why the guards still failed to do the required checks on him even after he was taken of it.

Look everyone was caught by surprise by Jeffrey Epstein's unexpected suicide, no one more so than Jeffrey Epstein.

The conspiracy angle doesn't totally add up when the investigation itself shouldn't be too badly scuppered from Epstein killing himself.

Testimony from Epstein himself could have been used in any case against Trump, as he was allegedly in the room when Trump allegedly raped a 13 year old girl. Allegedly.

Cuttooth wrote:The conspiracy angle doesn't totally add up when the investigation itself shouldn't be too badly scuppered from Epstein killing himself.

Depends on what things Epstein might have known and has now taken to his grave.

Moggy wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:The conspiracy angle doesn't totally add up when the investigation itself shouldn't be too badly scuppered from Epstein killing himself.

Depends on what things Epstein might have known and has now taken to his grave.

He did apperently have a load of photos for blackmail so hopefully we'll see some more charges.

twitter.com/IAStartingLine/status/1162056377562521600

I'm kind of torn between Bernie and Warren because Sanders is the only one I actually trust to deliver or try his level best to deliver in the face of opposition from both the Republicans and Democrats. Warren is less reassuring in that she is a very late convert to the cause and is still sort of in denial of her socialist leanings (ideally if you have a leader you want them to understand the philosophical and intellectual underpinning of the movement and be fully committed to the cause of labour). Nevertheless, she would probably face less opposition from congress.

Kind of academic at the moment as I am about 70% sure Trump is going to get re-elected. It will jump to 100% if mush-for-brains Biden gets the nomination.

I'd be happy with anyone on the dem side winning.
They just need to get rid of Trump and then concentrate on governing then we can get back to some kind of political sanity.

Meep wrote:I'm kind of torn between Bernie and Warren because Sanders is the only one I actually trust to deliver or try his level best to deliver in the face of opposition from both the Republicans and Democrats. Warren is less reassuring in that she is a very late convert to the cause and is still sort of in denial of her socialist leanings (ideally if you have a leader you want them to understand the philosophical and intellectual underpinning of the movement and be fully committed to the cause of labour). Nevertheless, she would probably face less opposition from congress.

Kind of academic at the moment as I am about 70% sure Trump is going to get re-elected. It will jump to 100% if mush-for-brains Biden gets the nomination.

Sanders may understand democratic socialism, but he doesn't have that many friends within the Democratic caucus, being as he is an Independent, so it remains to be seen whether he'd even be able to get a majority of the Democrats in Congress and the Senate to support many of his policies.

Warren was a Republican until the mid-1990s, but she's been a Democrat ever since, so I'd hardly call her a Johnny Come Lately - unless you demand she emerge from the womb with a Truman badge in hand. She's very intelligent and I trust her more than any other candidate to push for her policy agenda at every opportunity.