US Politics 3

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DML
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PostRe: US Politics 3
by DML » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:17 am

Meep wrote:Whilst his defeat this year is enjoyable nothing that happens now can change the fact that Donald Trump was president. He gets to be called president for the rest of his life and rub it in people's faces even though everyone including myself thought his campaign was laughable. So, yeah, the asshole strawberry floating "won" in the broader sense. However, I think the real anger should be preserved for the system of government and leadership that allowed him to do so in the first place. He is not some once in a generation genius. There will be more like him, probably more ruthless and more competent, unless there are serious changes both in the US and elsewhere.


If I was a Democrat president with House and Senate, I would only allow working politicians to apply to be President. If we had the same rules in the UK, we'd have had Farage as PM.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Monkey Man » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:03 am

Trump Sought Options for Attacking Iran to Stop Its Growing Nuclear Program

A range of senior advisers dissuaded the president from moving ahead with a military strike. The advisers — including Vice President Mike Pence; Secretary of State Mike Pompeo; Christopher C. Miller, the acting defense secretary; and Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff — warned that a strike against Iran’s facilities could easily escalate into a broader conflict in the last weeks of Mr. Trump’s presidency.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/16/us/p ... clear.html

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Tomous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:37 am

That kid doesn't have a chance.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Rex Kramer » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:51 am



banana split

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Drumstick » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:14 am

Well that'll help the Republicans win the run-off elections in January and retain the Senate seat in 2022

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Photek » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:17 am

DML wrote:
Meep wrote:Whilst his defeat this year is enjoyable nothing that happens now can change the fact that Donald Trump was president. He gets to be called president for the rest of his life and rub it in people's faces even though everyone including myself thought his campaign was laughable. So, yeah, the asshole strawberry floating "won" in the broader sense. However, I think the real anger should be preserved for the system of government and leadership that allowed him to do so in the first place. He is not some once in a generation genius. There will be more like him, probably more ruthless and more competent, unless there are serious changes both in the US and elsewhere.


If I was a Democrat president with House and Senate, I would only allow working politicians to apply to be President. If we had the same rules in the UK, we'd have had Farage as PM.

But you have Boris and the Conservatives in charge for 5 years...

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Lex-Man » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:28 am

Photek wrote:
DML wrote:
Meep wrote:Whilst his defeat this year is enjoyable nothing that happens now can change the fact that Donald Trump was president. He gets to be called president for the rest of his life and rub it in people's faces even though everyone including myself thought his campaign was laughable. So, yeah, the asshole strawberry floating "won" in the broader sense. However, I think the real anger should be preserved for the system of government and leadership that allowed him to do so in the first place. He is not some once in a generation genius. There will be more like him, probably more ruthless and more competent, unless there are serious changes both in the US and elsewhere.


If I was a Democrat president with House and Senate, I would only allow working politicians to apply to be President. If we had the same rules in the UK, we'd have had Farage as PM.

But you have Boris and the Conservatives in charge for 5 years...


Also I don't think Farage would want to actually be PM it'd mean that he'd have to take responsibility for something. Also there's probably enough of an anti-Farage vote to stop him getting elected.

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consistent
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PostRe: US Politics 3
by consistent » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:35 am

Photek wrote:
DML wrote:
Meep wrote:Whilst his defeat this year is enjoyable nothing that happens now can change the fact that Donald Trump was president. He gets to be called president for the rest of his life and rub it in people's faces even though everyone including myself thought his campaign was laughable. So, yeah, the asshole strawberry floating "won" in the broader sense. However, I think the real anger should be preserved for the system of government and leadership that allowed him to do so in the first place. He is not some once in a generation genius. There will be more like him, probably more ruthless and more competent, unless there are serious changes both in the US and elsewhere.


If I was a Democrat president with House and Senate, I would only allow working politicians to apply to be President. If we had the same rules in the UK, we'd have had Farage as PM.

But you have Boris and the Conservatives in charge for 5 years...

I don't think DML is arguing that our system is somehow any good, or that it's resulted in a desirable outcome, from the point of view of anyone who considers wellbeing the most important measurable of a government's success or failure. Rather, I think DML is pointing out the comparative bizarreness of the American system, where the system of voting for their "parliament" is seperate from the system of voting for their ultimate leader (I avoid using the term "Head of State" as we're the backwater when it comes to democratically employing one).

So if we were to employ an American style system where individuals vote both for the representative of their area AND the leader of government, it's entirely plausible that Farage could end up being the PM, leading a majority Tory parliament.

There are obviously many other different factors to consider. If we had a presidential system akin to that of the US, it's very likely we would, in time, see our politics morph into a two party state, with only the nominated representative of the two major parties ever being plausible options on the ballot. As such, it would mean someone like Farage would be less likely to win a presidential style election to become PM, as he's not the Tory party's chosen nominee. But to extend the American metaphor even further, under an American style system the party leadership don't select it's presidential nomination, it's membership does. So again, not outside the realms of possibility Farage could have been chosen as the Tory candidate for PM, much as Trump was selected for, not necessarily by, the Republican politicians.

Our system is absolutely not perfect - the continued existence of the monarchy reinforces the persistent notion that some folk are simply born better, and our bloated second chamber is entirely unelected and serve for life; plus our constituency boundaries exist at the whim of the party in power, allowing for readjustment and gerrymandering - but if we were to further apply the American mechanisms here, you'd do away with our constituencies and introduce states of varying sizes, each with electoral college votes. Of course, as this is an American system, the number of EC votes given to each state needs to be wildly disproportionate, in order to ensure that the party of the 'ruling class' starts every election with a significant advantage. I'm thinking "Greater London" would be our California with 55 EC votes, and then Scotland could be New York. Northwest Yorkshire could be Florida, with the boundaries cleverly drawn so that the liberal-leaning cities are outweighed by the right-wing voices of rural areas and numerous small towns. South Yorkshire of course will need splitting in two, so that the Tories have a chance of winning at least one of those states. And sparsely populated Conservative heartlands would need to be states in their own right.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Photek » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:11 pm

I see the Conservatives in the same light I see the Republicans in the states. Of course republicans are abhorrent on some extreme issues but like, the conservatives are getting there. Your newspapers are as bad as Fox News and even the mighty bbc has been reduced to a 'both sides' meme.

Everyone's seem to forgotten that Biden and Harris won the election in here, as in, the US imo has now a FAR better President/PM than the UK.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Moggy » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:17 pm

Photek wrote:I see the Conservatives in the same light I see the Republicans in the states. Of course republicans are abhorrent on some extreme issues but like, the conservatives are getting there. Your newspapers are as bad as Fox News and even the mighty bbc has been reduced to a 'both sides' meme.

Everyone's seem to forgotten that Biden and Harris won the election in here, as in, the US imo has now a FAR better President/PM than the UK.


The UK Conservative party is heading further right, but they are not as far right as the Republicans.

The Democrats are a very right wing party (by UK/European standards), they just look good to us because the alternative is so strawberry floating horrifying.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Tomous » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:39 pm

Photek wrote:I see the Conservatives in the same light I see the Republicans in the states. Of course republicans are abhorrent on some extreme issues but like, the conservatives are getting there. Your newspapers are as bad as Fox News and even the mighty bbc has been reduced to a 'both sides' meme.

Everyone's seem to forgotten that Biden and Harris won the election in here, as in, the US imo has now a FAR better President/PM than the UK.



I think almost everyone here would say they'd prefer Biden over Bojo in charge of the UK given the choice.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Lex-Man » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:56 pm

Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:I see the Conservatives in the same light I see the Republicans in the states. Of course republicans are abhorrent on some extreme issues but like, the conservatives are getting there. Your newspapers are as bad as Fox News and even the mighty bbc has been reduced to a 'both sides' meme.

Everyone's seem to forgotten that Biden and Harris won the election in here, as in, the US imo has now a FAR better President/PM than the UK.


The UK Conservative party is heading further right, but they are not as far right as the Republicans.

The Democrats are a very right wing party (by UK/European standards), they just look good to us because the alternative is so strawberry floating horrifying.


I think it might be a little more complicated with the US democrats because they do seem to run a far wider spectrum than any of the UK political parties. You have quite left wing people like Warren, Sanders and AOC but they are mainly way to the right of the Labour party and more like the Tories. That said they Democrats don't have the same reverence to the ingrained power that the Tories have.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Alvin Flummux » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:07 pm

Biden hopes to avoid divisive Trump investigations, preferring unity

Biden has told aides that he's concerned that investigations would divide the country but that he would leave decisions up to an independent Justice Department.

...

They said he has specifically told advisers that he is wary of federal tax investigations of Trump or of challenging any orders Trump may issue granting immunity to members of his staff before he leaves office. One adviser said Biden has made it clear that he "just wants to move on."


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... y-n1247959

Failing to investigate and punish criminality is a large part of what got us to Trump to begin with. It sends a message that emboldens those who would commit crimes in office.

Biden's DoJ must be absolutely ruthless, even if he is weak sauce.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Dual » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:11 pm

I'm sure Trump and the gang will be thankful for the olive branch and will show due respect to President Biden for the next 4 years.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Alvin Flummux » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:13 pm

He's 100% going to be taken advantage of, just like Obama was.

He doesn't seem to understand, after a decade of bad faith politicking from Republicans, that bipartisanship only works when both sides are dealing in good faith.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Lex-Man » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:41 pm

Not prosecuting Trump just invites more abuse of power by later presidents, they need to actually do something.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Memento Mori » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:44 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:
Biden hopes to avoid divisive Trump investigations, preferring unity

Biden has told aides that he's concerned that investigations would divide the country but that he would leave decisions up to an independent Justice Department.

...

They said he has specifically told advisers that he is wary of federal tax investigations of Trump or of challenging any orders Trump may issue granting immunity to members of his staff before he leaves office. One adviser said Biden has made it clear that he "just wants to move on."


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... y-n1247959

Failing to investigate and punish criminality is a large part of what got us to Trump to begin with. It sends a message that emboldens those who would commit crimes in office.

Biden's DoJ must be absolutely ruthless, even if he is weak sauce.

It does explicitly say there that he'll leave it up to the Justice Department which is how the process should work. The President shouldn't be ordering investigations into anyone. Even if federal charges aren't pursued, New York state is hungry to charge.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Moggy » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:45 pm

Lex-Man wrote:I think it might be a little more complicated with the US democrats because they do seem to run a far wider spectrum than any of the UK political parties. You have quite left wing people like Warren, Sanders and AOC but they are mainly way to the right of the Labour party and more like the Tories.


I don't think that's quite true. There's a big difference between Obama/Biden and AOC/Sanders, that's true. But there's also a big difference between Blair and Corbyn in the Labour Party.

I guess Obama/Biden are further away from AOC than Blair is to Corbyn, but the gaps are still enormous.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Lex-Man » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:52 pm

Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I think it might be a little more complicated with the US democrats because they do seem to run a far wider spectrum than any of the UK political parties. You have quite left wing people like Warren, Sanders and AOC but they are mainly way to the right of the Labour party and more like the Tories.


I don't think that's quite true. There's a big difference between Obama/Biden and AOC/Sanders, that's true. But there's also a big difference between Blair and Corbyn in the Labour Party.

I guess Obama/Biden are further away from AOC than Blair is to Corbyn, but the gaps are still enormous.


But Joe Manchin is a democrat and way to the right of Biden. Biden is the middle of the Democratic party so Democratic political spread is a little over double that of the Labour party.

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PostRe: US Politics 3
by Moggy » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:57 pm

Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I think it might be a little more complicated with the US democrats because they do seem to run a far wider spectrum than any of the UK political parties. You have quite left wing people like Warren, Sanders and AOC but they are mainly way to the right of the Labour party and more like the Tories.


I don't think that's quite true. There's a big difference between Obama/Biden and AOC/Sanders, that's true. But there's also a big difference between Blair and Corbyn in the Labour Party.

I guess Obama/Biden are further away from AOC than Blair is to Corbyn, but the gaps are still enormous.


But Joe Manchin is a democrat and way to the right of Biden. Biden is the middle of the Democratic party so Democratic political spread is a little over double that of the Labour party.


The majority of the Democrats are to the right of our traditional Tories (the current Tories are slightly different). That was my point originally.

Sure there's a small part of the Democrats that are left wing. Where else would they go in a two party state?

So yes the spread in the Democrats might be greater than that in UK parties, but it's misleading to pretend that our parties are all a big happy family. The gap between Blair (centre-right wing) and Corbyn (far left) is huge.

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