What does she say about the Store?

Hey, I’m 29!

Still counts for now, damn it...

Trelliz wrote:

Winckle wrote:

Karl_ wrote:It's unhealthy to base your self-perception around a product you like to buy or watch.

This is an important point. Because many people don't have the time or energy for creative pursuits under capitalism, they make their consumption of culture central to their identity. Or as Trelliz would say:

Trelliz wrote:Debord was right.

The more he identifies with the dominant images of need, the less he understands his own life and his own desires. The spectacle’s estrangement from the acting subject is expressed by the fact that the individual’s gestures are no longer his own; they are the gestures of someone else who represents them to him.

That is great and infuriating in equal measure.

I think I maybe experienced this "I'm a gamer too" sort of gooseberry fool that time my landlord's son came around to fix stuff, saw my games and mega drive and got triggered into some diatribe about "ugly" people in games, 4ch*n, general misogyny ("you can tell women are posting so we tell them to make a sandwich"), then abruptly declaring himself a white nationalist, before correcting this to "nationalist".

Yeah, I regretted getting into a dialogue and I now think about it a bit more. At least I know the alt-right gamer/nerd bubble is real, I mean, I'm not sure many people on here have actually met one.

Green Gecko wrote:I think I maybe experienced this "I'm a gamer too" sort of gooseberry fool that time my landlord's son came around to fix stuff, saw my games and mega drive and got triggered into some diatribe about "ugly" people in games, 4ch*n, general misogyny ("you can tell women are posting so we tell them to make a sandwich"), then abruptly declaring himself a white nationalist, before correcting this to "nationalist".

Yeah, I regretted getting into a dialogue and I now think about it a bit more. At least I know the alt-right gamer/nerd bubble is real, I mean, I'm not sure many people on here have actually met one.

Hi Green Gecko. Please understand that I write this with good intentions and present it as my own interpretation.

I honestly find it a bit unbelievable that somebody sees a library of retro console cartridges and interprets that to be a sign of participation in white nationalism. Could there have been something else that made him think you share similar views? (racist posters on your wall? I joke!)

My roots are from outside the UK, which is normally clear to anybody who meets me or in the employment sphere when someone reads my name… I live in London, it’s more diverse than many parts of the country which I know are sometimes outright unfriendly to outsiders. I’ve met white people who have been quite open about their racist views but I’ve never met a person who declares themselves to be a white nationalist - but I guess if they were they would likely share that with an audience they believe to be sympathetic!

When it comes to using the term gamer, I don’t think many people would list it as a hobby on their CV. But on the streets of London, where many have a different ‘home country’ when guys go around to someone else’s home for the first time and they see a console, the conversation is likely to go ‘so you’re a bit of a gamer are you?’ And that’s it! Maybe a quick game of FIFA.

What I have observed is that when a person sees someone from the same racial and sometimes national background there is normally an assumption that the person shares similar values. I have also noticed that for people who are racist from a white background there is sense of entitlement to having more of a right than others to many things. So, for example, if I get into a row about a parking space with a white person who is from the UK it might not just be an argument, or swearing, there occasionally has been a ‘strawberry float off back to your own country.’ No matter how many years there have been laws for racism, no matter how good an English accent one has or behaves or whether they were born in the UK - for a minority group of white people (not reflective of the whole country) there is always the underlying feeling that they have more right to be in this fine nation then anybody else.

I don’t doubt that you meet or mix with people who are nasty racists or white supremacists, some who also have an interest in computer and video games. But I think it is incorrect that there is a fashion in the mostly white video games journalism industry to believe correlation is causation. There are many gamers from around the world from different backgrounds who enjoy gaming. People who are black and asian and Indian and Arab and European and they are not white supremacists! Neither are the vast majority of white gamers.

Your Landlord’s son connected with you and assumed certain shared values, not because of your shared hobby but because you are likely from the same racial background.

I could be wrong, Venom, but I *think* you're kinda making a point that I called out earlier in the thread... in my view, gaming / gaming culture is not the problem; people are.

Racist people and idiotic people are in all walks of society. As gamers we highlight these behaviours when we spot them in our hobby; we call them out and this can potentially make us think "gaming has some horrible people in it". It does, but so do virtually all other hobbies / groups. I don't believe that racism and horrible behaviours are more prevalent in gaming than in life full stop.

jawafour wrote:[...] in my view, gaming / gaming culture is not the problem; people are [...]

You can say this about any socially-constructed problem though, right?

I don't think anyone's trying to make out playing games makes you a racist. But there seems to be an identifiable, large grouping of people that share certain characteristics:
* Predominantly young, white, straight, cis, male
* "Hardcore" gaming is their main hobby and community
* Anti-feminist, anti-"SJW"
* Racist and nationalist politics
And I mean, that group is significant enough to be catered to in "the marketplace of culture" (bleh) by extremely popular voices. People with pretty worrying views are all over gaming YouTube, Twitch, and that gets reflected in the big games forums like r/gaming.

And I guess the question is, why? Why is this bloc of gamers so problematic? Why do so many Twitch streamers say the n-word when they get mad? Why is PewDiePie so popular despite plugging Nazis?

It's not about shaming games as a hobby. I like games! I consider it one of the hobbies I really enjoy, and I'm very open about that irl too.

Karl_ wrote:[You can say (people are the problem) about any socially-constructed problem though, right?...

Absolutely, Karl, and I think that's the crux of it.

Karl_ wrote:...I don't think anyone's trying to make out playing games makes you a racist. But there seems to be an identifiable, large grouping of people that share certain characteristics...

I certainly wasn't trying to indicate or suggest that gaming makes people horrible! I agree that there is a large group of people who game that are racist and horrible but, yeah, I feel that similar types of people exist in most other sectors of hobbies/ society.

Karl_ wrote:...And I guess the question is, why? Why is this bloc of gamers so problematic? Why do so many Twitch streamers say the n-word when they get mad? Why is PewDiePie so popular despite plugging Nazis?...

I think that (some) folk right across society say the n-word when they get mad. Gaming is maybe a bit different to some hobbies / gatherings in that words / actions are live / recorded via streaming and videos; it's raw and without covering. Regrettably, I suspect that the same horrible behaviours take place in other hobbies but without the same level of awareness and attention on them. Gaming is a prime hobby for younger members of society and I guess it's a natural path of events that the horrible behaviours of society are reflected in it.

Karl_ wrote:..It's not about shaming games as a hobby...

I feel that some folk do think "it's gaming"; that many of these behaviours exist more in gaming than in other situations. I believe it's worse than that; that these unwanted behaviours exist across society.

I think gaming (like any form of media) can be dangerous if not approached with an appropriate amount of understanding and intelligence.

I think the 'Western' world in general has marginalised and under-invested in education in recent decades which has led to increasing numbers of intellectually vulnerable consumers.

I think gaming (unlike other forms of media) still makes use of its status as a 'new' media to excuse its overall lack of self-awareness. Instead of embracing its societal responsibilities as an impacting medium upon people's lives, it rejects self-regulation in favour of an "it's just a game!" narrative.

To a well educated, well adjusted person, playing videogames like Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty is an entertaining and intellectually challenging pastime. The player is able to appreciate the complexity of the design and the freedom of choice provided, and as such can enjoy the experience while also rejecting the moral positions of its characters.

A person brought up without a stable family background or with poor or incomplete schooling might be more likely to read into aspects of these games' characters, their actions, lifestyles, viewpoints etc. So unchecked adolescent years spent hiring prostitutes then murdering them and recouping your expenditure, or participating in history's most famous battles and wars from the POV of an invincible white soldier who kills scores of foreign enemies, might not result in that particular player having healthy opinions on the role of women in society, on feminism, on the involvement of one's own government in the affairs of overseas peoples, etc.

I'd say the overwhelming majority of posters on our forum are able to engage in experiences like these - much like we might watch, say, Tarantino films - and appreciate the nuances of the creator's attempts to present humour though controversial characters, without accepting said characters as role models whose positions are to be admired and replicated. Unfortunately, the systematic dismantling by elites of both reasonable education provision and support for parents among the poorest and most vulnerable in our society has meant that more and more self-confessed gamers lack the emotional and intellectual intelligence to recognise and reflect on these nuances, instead only seeing an empowering worldview presented to them by individuals they can identify with.

Without radical societal change, we'll need gaming companies to embrace their role as a significant influence on a susceptible youth, otherwise 'gamer culture' will continue to be toxic.

Football is worse than games, just look at the football thread here

Nah, I'm pretty sure the guy has Aspergers too and just went on some massive monologue without really thinking whether I would appreciate a white nationalist in my home and signing off with and I quote "When the revolution comes I'll be the first to shoot" on his way out of the front door.

The reason I allowed that to happen is that I'm extremely patient and will nod along and quietly dismiss some things said by people without making it clear I detest what they are saying. There was nothing whatsoever in my demeanour, surroundings or statements that suggested I would relate to these views other than having a bunch of video games. Yes I am white, but I don't agree that is enough. He saw them tidily displayed and said (twice) "I really like your retro consoles" etc. as if expecting or hoping to elicit great elation from me and a jolly good chat when, really, I just wanted him to strawberry float off since he royally strawberry floated up the job of just drilling some holes into a wall, but I am too shy and vulnerable for that (I mean, when someone starts dribbling out dangerous rhetoric after spending 45 minutes swearing at a wall while brandishing a drill, you are careful what you say;- he also for no apparent reason pointed out he works out and can defend himself). I may have played along slightly because I make an irrepressible effort to relate to people on any level I can, plus it reveals people's true character and cuts through the gooseberry fool, so once it was clear who I was interacting with I was happy for them to leave and I had the estate agent request that they not return.

What it did do however is highlight the existence of this "ugly people in games, people 'politicising' mah gaems" rhetoric (racism/fascistic preservationism of dominant tropes; feeling persecuted by representation), which is absolutely present in online discussions around games, from some people living in certain corners of 4ch*n et al and that way creating a feedback loop for an ever downward (in my opinion) spiralling shitheap of banana splits that play video games. The same guy said he wanted Trump erected as a giant solid gold statue, nicknaming him "Emperor Trump". I mean, this guy was totally strawberry floating nuts, but that didn't make it any less real to hear these things. I'm not associating the two with that simple adjoining I experienced in one person, instead only demonstrating that it can and does exist, this certain subset of gathered individuals - perhaps inevitably. And I think that is more likely with any new media hobby that used to be for geeks/nerds/losers in the eye of whoever or whatever, an opinion largely fuelled by bad science and newspapers we have all experienced at some point.

I wouldn't try to defend this too much Venom, I think that is problematic as well because it's struggling to reconcile with the reality that awful people play games and some of them latch onto that (now) mass culture as a vehicle to peddle and justify their abhorrent views through discussing a shared medium. This guy didn't just start spouting racist rhetoric, he specifically spoke of how he plays Destiny and is upset that there are ugly black people added to his favourite game. I don't even play Destiny, yet it's easy to imagine he had hoped I did because I like games and Destiny is a pretty big game (it followed after Halo online etc, which had its own sort of Xbox/stoner subculture that Microsoft courted as the "extreeeeme console", with plenty of reports here and elsewhere of how much racist diatribe comes over headset on XBL). He specifically segued from games in general to political talk/representation in games and then used that as an entry point to discuss his racism, because perhaps there was a chance I would agree (for the record, I absolutely don't). Like I say this is inevitable with any hobby that has previously been perceived as only marginally interesting to boys and teenagers wasting time away in their bedrooms doing traditionally unsavoury activities like playing games. To ignore that happening now is to ignore the fact that games were ever a new and edgy thing for kids to do and that they were ever a subculture (and in some ways still are; this very forum is a relic of those times). This happens to all new media from punk to reading novels or writing poetry; darker segments of society latch onto the subculture and feed on its controversies to further their ideals even when they are not intrinsically part of the medium or the culture around it. But they are part of it.

A person brought up without a stable family background or with poor or incomplete schooling might be more likely to read into aspects of these games' characters, their actions, lifestyles, viewpoints etc.

This guy is the son of a published Doctor of climate science and his mother is a master in Chemistry, also this is a very low crime, mostly-white, highly liberal area of the south coast (Sussex). So it's more likely he had a relatively good middle class upbringing and then dived when his parents either divorced his views or he otherwise strawberry floated everything up by "suffering from entitlement" i.e. not pulling his socks up when asked, as a matter of protest. So that can happen just as much with a relatively sound fiscal upbringing as any more likely poor one, due to, for example, being poor or dependent on things like drugs or violence to communicate and socialise within the family/social groups typically because there are underlying sociological issues and desperate poverty.

Perhaps people with personality disorders, or those who struggle socially are more likely to exhibit extreme views, have fewer social outlets to temper that behaviour.

That attracts them to more solitary passtimes which have an element of wish fulfillment or empowerment. Like superhero films or video games. Those things aren't at fault and it certainly isn't causitive, it's just that they can appeal to the lonely or disenchanted, which in turn means more of those people get represented in that hobby.

jawafour wrote:

Karl_ wrote:..It's not about shaming games as a hobby...

I feel that some folk do think "it's gaming"; that many of these behaviours exist more in gaming than in other situations. I believe it's worse than that; that these unwanted behaviours exist across society.

They do exist more amongst some sub-sets of gamers than across society in general. It's as wrong to say gaming is unrelated as it is to blame it.

The demographics of gamers are not representative of society as a whole, although that is continually becoming less true as gaming continues to grow as a medium. That itself is partly the cause, as a previously insular community of young nerdy men feels its identity being stripped away by a broadening medium, and expresses that fragility through gatekeeping.

Noting how that sub-culture is related to gaming is not about blaming games or gamers as a whole. But to say "it's the same across society as a whole" is simply ignoring the actual situation for no benefit, isn't it?

Abacus wrote:Perhaps people with personality disorders, or those who struggle socially are more likely to exhibit extreme views, have fewer social outlets to temper that behaviour.

That attracts them to more solitary passtimes which have an element of wish fulfillment or empowerment. Like superhero films or video games. Those things aren't at fault and it certainly isn't causitive, it's just that they can appeal to the lonely or disenchanted, which in turn means more of those people get represented in that hobby.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. It's just important to acknowledge that that segment of the video-gaming audience exists and sometimes they will use the growth of their favourite medium within society to latch on or catalyse the proliferation of their views. We see this with nationalist or fascistic rhetoric in everything from smack-talk online to streamers worth millions upon millions of dollars. The success of their favourite medium amplifies their platform to spout hatespeech. This doesn't make games unique in this respect, it acknowledges that the emergence of a new media into mass culture and acceptance provides a platform and some false cues for fans of such a medium to attempt to court others by common interest. This is how the alt-right tunnel via gaming YouTube channels etc. which I think Karl is right about works. And fascists, nazis etc. have always done this, they did the same thing with rock and punk music and even hip-hop and now it is happening with video games. It's irresponsible to shy away from that happening as people literally get killed. It's nobody's fault, neither the industry nor the consumers of said industry, but awareness is important. Especially it's relatively unique and novel in that in video games you can interact with people in very intimate and complex ways while also being distant, protected and abstracted from oneself, in the same way as the Internet provides anonymity and connection without borders etc. but on a whole other level. This is cyberspace and it's all made child-like and unreal by the subject of games being generally fantasy by nature, which makes it easier to seed hate in a casual and fun-loving environment where there is no inherent danger in doing so other than, maybe getting kicked from a game or told to strawberry float off or 360-no-scoped rather than having your head kicked in or being served with an ASBO / hate-crime conviction.

OrangeRKN wrote:

jawafour wrote:

Karl_ wrote:..It's not about shaming games as a hobby...

I feel that some folk do think "it's gaming"; that many of these behaviours exist more in gaming than in other situations. I believe it's worse than that; that these unwanted behaviours exist across society.

They do exist more amongst some sub-sets of gamers than across society in general. It's as wrong to say gaming is unrelated as it is to blame it.

The demographics of gamers are not representative of society as a whole, although that is continually becoming less true as gaming continues to grow as a medium. That itself is partly the cause, as a previously insular community of young nerdy men feels its identity being stripped away by a broadening medium, and expresses that fragility through gatekeeping.

Noting how that sub-culture is related to gaming is not about blaming games or gamers as a whole. But to say "it's the same across society as a whole" is simply ignoring the actual situation for no benefit, isn't it?

I don't think you meant to, Orange - and you may have been talkng about the wider picture rather than me personally - but just to be clear to anyone who is popping in to the thread and (understandably!) doesn't have time to read every post on a subject, I want to confirm that I have not said that horrible behaviours should be ignored; whether in gaming or outside of gaming. I also wasn't implying that they should be tolerated in gaming because it happens in other situations.

I'm not trying to rank or prioritise how much horrible behaviours occur and I absolutely agree that gaming can be a cesspit on occasion; I feel that the same horrible behaviours are evident in the wider world, too. We have a heck of a lot to tackle and sort out!

Apologies if you took anything as a personal slight, jawa, I think we are all on the same broad page

I think we all have to detach personally from what we love and to some aspect each other to analyse these issues so I'm sure there's no ill will between us.

I was going to post this is one of those situations were two people can be right. It's both a wider issue in society and also one that manifests itself in one iteration here in our hobby.

I don’t think gaming itself is to blame for things. Gaming has come a long way from the stereotype of the acne ridden teenager alone in their bedroom, people of all ages play games even if it is just a mobile phone game.

Gaming “culture” has issues though. As do a lot of online cultures to be fair, but gaming culture does attract a certain type. The alt-right/fedora-wearing misogynists are far more likely to be into games than they are to be into cross stitch for instance.

Although for all I know, the cross stich forums might be overrun with Nazi propaganda and plots to murder knitters.

Arts-and-crafts forums are very progressive. You aren't allowed to express pro-Trump sentiment at all on Ravelry (which is a very good policy!).

Karl_ wrote:Arts-and-crafts forums are very progressive. You aren't allowed to express pro-Trump sentiment at all on Ravelry (which is a very good policy!).

Bullshit, explain this then: