What next for 3D Mario? Odyssey 2, Galaxthree, Sunshine HD, 3D World 3, Retirement?

I do count pre-postgame ‘optional’ content though. Those Toad stars felt like rewards for reaching places. So did the head-butting blocks. In SMO you practically got those Moons for walking down the pre-ordained path and keeping your eyes open.

That said, I agree that not all of SM64’s stars were great, but it had another trick up its sleeve: rarity. Rarity increases perceived value. You valued each Star because odds were, it would take a while before you got another one. Not the case with Moons.

Tomous wrote:You know what had a great post game? 3D World

Mario Galaxy 2’s was better. I guess that’s the real thing I don’t understand: surely if you are a linear Mario fan, you want another Galaxy more than another 2D 3D game?

Jenuall wrote:I think you need 124 moons to complete the game, there are easily 124 excellent moons in the game!

There have always been some trite or repetitive stars/shines/whatever it was in Galaxy in these games. Stuff in 64 like finding the 8 red coins in each level, touching 4/5 things that make a number appear, collect 100 coins etc. wasn't exactly thrilling 100% of the time - hell even some stars are just sat there in "!" boxes or just given to you for talking to toad!

But you're not going to hit 124 great moons are you? You're going to have a mix of great moons, repeated moons and dull moons. And if you stop playing at that point, you'll definitely miss out on some great stuff. Imagine completing the game and not doing the festival in the Metro Kingdom? You'd miss what is arguably the best moment in the game.

I also, don't think saying a game from 1996 had badly designed moons excuses a 2017's game design either, especially when that 1996 game was Nintendo's first step into 3D.

Balladeer wrote:Mario Galaxy 2’s was better. I guess that’s the real thing I don’t understand: surely if you are a linear Mario fan, you want another Galaxy more than another 2D 3D game?

I agree, and I would definitely prefer another Galaxy personally. I guess for anyone choosing 3D World, it may come down to multiplayer and aspects of Galaxy people perhaps didn't get on with so well (motion control for example).

Tomous wrote:

Jenuall wrote:I think you need 124 moons to complete the game, there are easily 124 excellent moons in the game!

There have always been some trite or repetitive stars/shines/whatever it was in Galaxy in these games. Stuff in 64 like finding the 8 red coins in each level, touching 4/5 things that make a number appear, collect 100 coins etc. wasn't exactly thrilling 100% of the time - hell even some stars are just sat there in "!" boxes or just given to you for talking to toad!

But you're not going to hit 124 great moons are you? You're going to have a mix of great moons, repeated moons and dull moons. And if you stop playing at that point, you'll definitely miss out on some great stuff. Imagine completing the game and not doing the festival in the Metro Kingdom? You'd miss what is arguably the best moment in the game.

I also, don't think saying a game from 1996 had badly designed moons excuses a 2017's game design either, especially when that 1996 game was Nintendo's first step into 3D.

I wasn't using the 64 reference to "excuse" Odyssey, it was brought up as a discussion point by Balladeer.

I genuinely do not recall there being many dull or repeated moons on the first play through, the narrative and design tends to lead you toward the "story moons" and those which are more interesting before it does anything else. I think it is entirely possible and indeed probable that the average player will go through a first pass of the game from opening to final boss without encountering that much in the way of dullness or repitition.

Again, if people choose to stay in each Kingdom and 100% it first time (or as much as you can anyway) then they will experience a greater percentage of "cheap" moons, but that is their choice, and the nature of the design should make it clear to the player when a good time to move on is.

I'm not trying to pretend that there isn't a problem with repitition, or claim that every moon is gold standard, but for me it was not anywhere near as big a deal as some people made out. Some of them are just plain bad. But like I say I was just happy of any incentive to go back and keep exploring this incredible game. I've said on here before that if I had got to the end of Mario 64 and Peach had said - "Hey Mario go back to those levels there's 120 more stars!" I would have been strawberry floating ecstatic, even if they featured some repeats or weren't all of the same high quality as the best that the main game had to offer!

124 excellent moons in Odyssey is a real push.

I'd be more then happy with a new 3D World type game, it nearly made 3D Land look like tech demo for me. Although I'd kill for a new Galaxy.

I'm not sure why anyone would pick Sunshine HD or sequel when Odyssey does so much more and so much better. Heck Odyssey could take you there for a nostalgia trip if you want.

Tomous wrote:But you're not going to hit 124 great moons are you? You're going to have a mix of great moons, repeated moons and dull moons. And if you stop playing at that point, you'll definitely miss out on some great stuff. Imagine completing the game and not doing the festival in the Metro Kingdom? You'd miss what is arguably the best moment in the game.

This basically the issue with all open world games though. There is a chance in BOTW you might end up only mostly doing the filler combat shrines for example. When I've played Elder Scrolls etc. hours and hours have passed where I've been bored and just hoped I'd find something interesting to do.

I think for the most part Odyssey deals with this extremely well but plenty of moons have a whiff this would have been a 1-up in another Mario game.

Jamo3103 wrote:Skyward Sword swimming

best swimming controls ever

The Watching Artist wrote:I'm not sure why anyone would pick Sunshine HD or sequel when Odyssey does so much more and so much better. Heck Odyssey could take you there for a nostalgia trip if you want.

There’s an argument for saying that Odyssey is the ‘true’ spiritual successor to SM64. In that case, imagine the leap the ‘true’ spiritual successor to SMS would make over the original!

Captain Kinopio wrote:124 excellent moons in Odyssey is a real push.

This is the other end of the nonsense IMO.

The Watching Artist wrote:I think for the most part Odyssey deals with this extremely well but plenty of moons have a whiff this would have been a 1-up in another Mario game.

I think this is true, but also highlights part of why this is a hard problem to solve as well. How do you reward the player for achievement in something like Mario these days?

In the 2D games it was much easier because you could chuck out a 1-up as a reward and the player would feel good - they got something that helps them toward their goal, but 1-ups aren't needed now as lives are basically a dead concept. Similarly with power ups - exploring to find a fire flower, leaf or cape in the 2D games was a great incentive because it helped you, it gave you a better chance of making it to the end of a stage. But power ups now are more for achieving specific tasks to earn a star, shine or moon rather than a general bonus to help you.

Introduce some other form of reward or currency? Give the player coins for some of this stuff instead of moons? I'm not sure.

Captain Kinopio wrote:124 excellent moons in Odyssey is a real push.

Agreed. Even if you're applying the most absurd criteria to discount some, you're still left with at least 350 I'd say that are excellent as a minimum.

Dannie Lennox wrote:

Captain Kinopio wrote:124 excellent moons in Odyssey is a real push.

Agreed. Even if you're applying the most absurd criteria to discount some, you're still left with at least 350 I'd say that are excellent as a minimum.

Dan speaks the truth!

I'd like to see you scrape your way to that number

Balladeer wrote:Mario Galaxy 2’s was better. I guess that’s the real thing I don’t understand: surely if you are a linear Mario fan, you want another Galaxy more than another 2D 3D game?

Nope. 3D World is hands-down the better representation of enjoyable linear Mario gameplay. Galaxy is great but 3D World constantly offered new ideas and levels, instead of being stuck to just a handful of levels and the same reused ideas over and over again. There's only so much mileage you can get from using Cloud Mario.

My thoughts of the 3D games are:

64 > 3D World > Galaxy 2 > Galaxy 1 > Odyssey> Sunshine> 64DS> 3D Land

3D Land was fun for a handheld title. Nothing more, nothing less.
64DS was a fun revisiting of 64, with some cool new mechanics but let down by an awful control scheme.
Sunshine I don't get why so many people love this one. Has everyone forgotten how much hate it received upon launch? It's a good game, on the level of Billy Hatcher/other B-tier platformers, but it's not a good Mario game. Replace Mario with any random character and it would still feel the same, minus the inclusion of Bowser Jr
Odyssey was a lot of fun with its big set pieces (Metro Kingdom/Ruined Dragon/Bowser Kingdom) but because it relies so heavily on spectacle it does suffer in the replayability department. If you've already seen the spectacle, going back and seeing it a second time won't be as impressive.
The Galaxies were great. Loved running through them. Rosalina's storybook was a neat bonus.
3D World is the greatest iteration of the classic 2D formula, it feels like a natural evolution from SMB3 and Super Mario World, albeit in 3D. I'd much rather Nintendo use this as its 2D-esque Mario series instead of New Super Mario Bros.
64 gets the top spot and yes a large part of that is because of nostalgia. There's certainly flaws with it, given the technical limitations of the time (Lakitu is drunk half the time) but also its levels are the most memorable, and revisiting Peach's Castle is like going home. It's technically been beaten in almost every aspect by subsequent titles but it's the one I enjoy the most.

Captain Kinopio wrote:I'd like to see you scrape your way to that number

There's being facetious, and there's being a troll.

The game was universally acknowledged upon release as being among the very greatest of all time. It's the third-highest ranked game ever on Gamerankings 'All-Time Best', and it's ranked at #20 on Metacritic with an average score of 97 / 100. There are 880 unique moons to obtain (excluding the ones you buy at Crazy Cap), so for me to suggest that less than half of those are gained through "excellent" gameplay scenarios could not reasonably be considered a controversial comment. To state that we'd have to "scrape" to that number is ludicrous and suggests that you perhaps don't understand videogames or why they might be considered to be an enjoyable pastime?

Just because the game didn't fit your exact expectations doesn't disqualify it from being a fantastic, entertaining experience, and your consistent dismissal of it as being a poor quality title is just childish, without even at least any humour to offset your opinion.

tl;dr - don't post Herbi

LightWanderer wrote:3D World is hands-down the better representation of enjoyable linear Mario gameplay.

Fair enough, let’s read on and see wh...

LightWanderer wrote:Galaxy is great but 3D World constantly offered new ideas and levels, instead of being stuck to just a handful of levels and the same reused ideas over and over again. There's only so much mileage you can get from using Cloud Mario.

There are many criticisms that I can and do label the Galaxies with. To see lack of variety among them genuinely confuses me.

Dannie Lennox wrote:

Captain Kinopio wrote:I'd like to see you scrape your way to that number

There's being facetious, and there's being a troll.

The game was universally acknowledged upon release as being among the very greatest of all time. It's the third-highest ranked game ever on Gamerankings 'All-Time Best', and it's ranked at #20 on Metacritic with an average score of 97 / 100. There are 880 unique moons to obtain (excluding the ones you buy at Crazy Cap), so for me to suggest that less than half of those are gained through "excellent" gameplay scenarios could not reasonably be considered a controversial comment. To state that we'd have to "scrape" to that number is ludicrous and suggests that you perhaps don't understand videogames or why they might be considered to be an enjoyable pastime?

Just because the game didn't fit your exact expectations doesn't disqualify it from being a fantastic, entertaining experience, and your consistent dismissal of it as being a poor quality title is just childish, without even at least any humour to offset your opinion.

tl;dr - don't post Herbi

Don't you also get 60 from Toadette for playing the game.

A huge number of moons in that game are acquired for doing nothing, something tedious or just outright annoying.

I don't think there are anything like 300 moons from excellent gameplay in the game. Not even close.

I broke down the Cap Kingdom, based on Polygon's complete moon guide. I don't think it gives a complete picture, because the critical path of the game prioritises the bigger, event-like moons as the stages are introduced, and plenty of the more repetitive moons are only added in the post-game, but it's good to see the variety and balance nonetheless.

Cap Kingdom Moons wrote:5 - General platforming
8 - Exploration/Hidden in level
2 - Collect five power moon pieces
1 - Collect musical notes
2 - NPC quests
2 - Rolling courses
2 - Timer challenges
1 - Catch flying bird
1 - Catch rabbit
2 - Koopa races
1 - Find Captain Toad
1 - Find Peach
1 - Spot Taxi with binoculars
1 - Solve hint art
1 - Buy from shop

I put the more repetitive types of moon at the bottom. General platforming includes cappy transformation sections that require platforming like hopping around as a frog.

I maintain that people should only really suffer from the repetition if they try to 100% the game or play very completionist on each world before moving on - which I also maintain is not really the way the game should be played!

Balladeer wrote:I had completely forgotten about the four-player aspect, I’ll grant you that. I still maintain that this:

Tomous wrote:I would prefer a 3D World sequel to an Odyssey sequel personally.

is a high level of nonsense though, if considering the one-player experience only (IMO). The things wrong with Odyssey (too many easy Moons, empty space in levels) are fixable in a sequel. The things wrong with SM3DW (overly linear, time limits) are fundamental to its gameplay, with the possible exception of the blocky non-organic course structures.

Oh no, linearity. Such a bad thing... Oh wait. It isn't.

BTW, I strawberry floating hated 64 when it came out. After playing SMB, 2, 3, all-stars and World. Mario 64 is not at all what I wanted. I grew to like it in the end, but Galaxy and 3D world are way better than 64 to me and the fludless sections in Mario Sunshine are too.

Pedz wrote:Oh no, linearity. Such a bad thing... Oh wait. It isn't.

Yep well you hated SM64 so that shows all your opinions are wrong.

Different experiences Pedz. I loved SM64 and its exploratory nature (not having grown up on the 2D games so much), and it became my template for what I wanted in Mario going forwards. You didn’t. It can definitely be a bad thing to some people.

There’s room for both types of 3D Mario experience, but I maintain that 3D World is about as close to objectively worse than the Galaxies for people who like that sort of Mario (in one-player) as it’s possible to get in the taste-based subjective world of gaming opinions.

Balladeer wrote:

The Watching Artist wrote:I'm not sure why anyone would pick Sunshine HD or sequel when Odyssey does so much more and so much better. Heck Odyssey could take you there for a nostalgia trip if you want.

There’s an argument for saying that Odyssey is the ‘true’ spiritual successor to SM64. In that case, imagine the leap the ‘true’ spiritual successor to SMS would make over the original!

Frankly Odyssey is as much a "spiritual successor" to Sunshine as it is SM64. Only the surface level aesthetic and lack of a HUB world make it different.

Jenuall wrote:

The Watching Artist wrote:I think for the most part Odyssey deals with this extremely well but plenty of moons have a whiff this would have been a 1-up in another Mario game.

I think this is true, but also highlights part of why this is a hard problem to solve as well. How do you reward the player for achievement in something like Mario these days?

In the 2D games it was much easier because you could chuck out a 1-up as a reward and the player would feel good - they got something that helps them toward their goal, but 1-ups aren't needed now as lives are basically a dead concept. Similarly with power ups - exploring to find a fire flower, leaf or cape in the 2D games was a great incentive because it helped you, it gave you a better chance of making it to the end of a stage. But power ups now are more for achieving specific tasks to earn a star, shine or moon rather than a general bonus to help you.

Introduce some other form of reward or currency? Give the player coins for some of this stuff instead of moons? I'm not sure.

Bring back the 1-up! seriously I've just played SMW and Yoshis Island for the first time and having 1-ups doesn't make the games less enjoyable. I enjoyed finding them in the 3D games. Running out of lives could have hit your wallet harder and maybe you could even buy them in shops. Heck they could have even had moons that were find all the ancient relic 1-ups in a level. Does it matter if you end up with a million lives at the end of the game? Actually I quite enjoy seeing the number go up.

Odyssey already has different currencies etc. I wouldnt have minded another type of collectable that earned you a moon (ancient relic 1-ups!). Or just have less moons in the game. Sometimes devs just need to know when to quit. Did Odyssey really need that many moons? I rather liked the way in Banjo you had Mumbo tokens but you didnt need them all however if you saw one you knew it might come in handy. But then thats a bit like the purple coins....

For me its a minor complaint on a great game anyway.