What religion are you?

I was brought up as a Christian and still semi regularly attend church to this day, no where near as much as I used to though and I'm not really sure why? (well working every other Sunday accounts for half of them but even on my Sunday off I'm not always bothered about going sometimes) I guess I almost seem to have grown out of it as I've gotten older? Not sure what a better phrase would be but as I've gotten older I definitely seem to have drifted away somewhat.

Errkal wrote:

LightWanderer wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:It has baffled me throughout my entire life why religion is still as prominent in this day and age.

Hope is a very powerful drug. Many people want to feel a sense of purpose, as if there's a grand plan for them, and religion is one of the easiest way to feel that. Then of course it answers big questions like where did we come from etc

This, many many people aren’t cool with idea that when you die you end, religion helps that.

People shouldn't wilfully deceive themselves though. The truth is better than a delusion, even if it's less comforting.

Undecided which I guess is agnostic

Preezy wrote:

Errkal wrote:

LightWanderer wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:It has baffled me throughout my entire life why religion is still as prominent in this day and age.

Hope is a very powerful drug. Many people want to feel a sense of purpose, as if there's a grand plan for them, and religion is one of the easiest way to feel that. Then of course it answers big questions like where did we come from etc

This, many many people aren’t cool with idea that when you die you end, religion helps that.

People shouldn't wilfully deceive themselves though. The truth is better than a delusion, even if it's less comforting.

I don't understand how people can willfully deceive themselves, though. Surely you either believe it's true or you don't. Surely something being a nice thing to believe doesn't override logical reasoning?!

I'm an atheist, but certainly a very different kind of atheist than I was, say, 10 years ago.

Back in my late teens and early 20s, I was definitely one of those extremely online, capital-A, atheists, and quite frankly, I'm embarrassed that I used to be that way. I wasn't just irreligious, but actually very anti religion, and got into my fair share of shouting matches on here, on PoopGang, and anywhere else on the Internet.

Like a lot of things in that time of my life, my edgelord years, I found comfort, and invested myself heavily, in identities and subcultures that provided a facsimile of self worth, by making me feel like I was better than other people. Being not just atheist, but anti theist, automatically I thought, made me smarter, more liberal, and more moral, than people who followed a religion, because I was right, and they supported institutions that had done nothing but harm and hinder the world.

This was of course all bullshit, but it's what I felt at the time, and like I say, I thought if I aligned myself with enough edgy beliefs, they alone would validate me as a "better" person.

I think one of the things that helped me change, was the same turn that has seen so many young men and women online, head off down the alt right rabbit hole, that I thankfully avoided. Internet atheism got more and more Islamophobic, and although I was the kind of dickhead who used to browse 4ch*n and that stuff at the time, I couldn't square the racism I found coming out of online atheist communities in attacking Muslims, with my own atheist non belief. I stepped away from online atheism as a thing, and never looked back. I avoided the "skeptic" communities, and when gamer gate boiled over, led by atheist community figures, I was glad that I'd turned my back on it. I never bought the nonsense idea of "Islam isn't a race" and suddenly, I was one of those hypocrites who attacks Christians and Christianity, but won't say anything bad about Muslims and Islam. And you know what I discovered? Christians and Christianity are fine. I actually like them a lot. And people of all sorts of other faiths.

Faiths, throughout history, are fascinating. So many beliefs, that have inspired so many works of art, pieces of music, fantastic buildings, and stories that have lived for thousands of years.

I'm actually very jealous of people who really believe in something. I can't imagine what it must feel like to know that there's a life after death, or rebirth, or some other device experience out there for us all. I wish I had something in my life that could be that pure, and something I could devote myself to without question. But I can't make myself believe, and it would be foolish to do so. I'd be falling into the same trap that made me an obnoxious banana split to good people, adopting an identity to give myself some sense of worth. Instead, I just accept that I'll never have that, and that's OK with me now.

That said, I haven't thrown out my beliefs about the bad things that have happened in religion. Some of the most abhorrent acts have been carried out by people in the name of a god they believed in, and used to justify their acts. My anger and dislike is better placed now, though, and my problems with religion are explained much the same way as my problems with a lot of other bad things in the world. Institutions, with imbalanced power, will always be a force for bad. My dislike of religious institutions is now much more informed by my Anarchist beliefs, than my atheist ones.

I would never want to deny anyone the personal religious moments that can bring so much comfort to the vulnerable. By that same logic, I absolutely want to see the power of institutions that would exploit those vulnerable people, stripped away.

Ultimately, I'm very sorry that I have upset a lot of very good people, by attacking their faith, in bad faith. I acted like I was trying to enlighten them, but I was only trying to create within myself, a sense of self with. I feel awful for the way I used to speak to Scotticus on here at times, because he was never anything but friendly and open towards me, but I attacked his beliefs, and now I can never apologise to him. At the very least, if he was right, maybe he'll see this.

P.S. I typed this all out on my phone, and it's probably full of typos and auto corrects, but it's too fiddly to go back and edit.

Knoyleo wrote:I'm an atheist, but certainly a very different kind of atheist than I was, say, 10 years ago.

Back in my late teens and early 20s, I was definitely one of those extremely online, capital-A, atheists, and quite frankly, I'm embarrassed that I used to be that way. I wasn't just irreligious, but actually very anti religion, and got into my fair share of shouting matches on here, on PoopGang, and anywhere else on the Internet.

Like a lot of things in that time of my life, my edgelord years, I found comfort, and invested myself heavily, in identities and subcultures that provided a facsimile of self worth, by making me feel like I was better than other people. Being not just atheist, but anti theist, automatically I thought, made me smarter, more liberal, and more moral, than people who followed a religion, because I was right, and they supported institutions that had done nothing but harm and hinder the world.

This was of course all bullshit, but it's what I felt at the time, and like I say, I thought if I aligned myself with enough edgy beliefs, they alone would validate me as a "better" person.

I think one of the things that helped me change, was the same turn that has seen so many young men and women online, head off down the alt right rabbit hole, that I thankfully avoided. Internet atheism got more and more Islamophobic, and although I was the kind of dickhead who used to browse 4ch*n and that stuff at the time, I couldn't square the racism I found coming out of online atheist communities in attacking Muslims, with my own atheist non belief. I stepped away from online atheism as a thing, and never looked back. I avoided the "skeptic" communities, and when gamer gate boiled over, led by atheist community figures, I was glad that I'd turned my back on it. I never bought the nonsense idea of "Islam isn't a race" and suddenly, I was one of those hypocrites who attacks Christians and Christianity, but won't say anything bad about Muslims and Islam. And you know what I discovered? Christians and Christianity are fine. I actually like them a lot. And people of all sorts of other faiths.

Faiths, throughout history, are fascinating. So many beliefs, that have inspired so many works of art, pieces of music, fantastic buildings, and stories that have lived for thousands of years.

I'm actually very jealous of people who really believe in something. I can't imagine what it must feel like to know that there's a life after death, or rebirth, or some other device experience out there for us all. I wish I had something in my life that could be that pure, and something I could devote myself to without question. But I can't make myself believe, and it would be foolish to do so. I'd be falling into the same trap that made me an obnoxious banana split to good people, adopting an identity to give myself some sense of worth. Instead, I just accept that I'll never have that, and that's OK with me now.

That said, I haven't thrown out my beliefs about the bad things that have happened in religion. Some of the most abhorrent acts have been carried out by people in the name of a god they believed in, and used to justify their acts. My anger and dislike is better placed now, though, and my problems with religion are explained much the same way as my problems with a lot of other bad things in the world. Institutions, with imbalanced power, will always be a force for bad. My dislike of religious institutions is now much more informed by my Anarchist beliefs, than my atheist ones.

I would never want to deny anyone the personal religious moments that can bring so much comfort to the vulnerable. By that same logic, I absolutely want to see the power of institutions that would exploit those vulnerable people, stripped away.

Ultimately, I'm very sorry that I have upset a lot of very good people, by attacking their faith, in bad faith. I acted like I was trying to enlighten them, but I was only trying to create within myself, a sense of self with. I feel awful for the way I used to speak to Scotticus on here at times, because he was never anything but friendly and open towards me, but I attacked his beliefs, and now I can never apologise to him. At the very least, if he was right, maybe he'll see this.

P.S. I typed this all out on my phone, and it's probably full of typos and auto corrects, but it's too fiddly to go back and edit.

Good post mate.

Don’t beat yourself up, the PG era may as well have been a lifetime ago. I can’t remember a single drama from that time.

You remember your worst moments more than anybody else does I think.

Preezy wrote:

Errkal wrote:

LightWanderer wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:It has baffled me throughout my entire life why religion is still as prominent in this day and age.

Hope is a very powerful drug. Many people want to feel a sense of purpose, as if there's a grand plan for them, and religion is one of the easiest way to feel that. Then of course it answers big questions like where did we come from etc

This, many many people aren’t cool with idea that when you die you end, religion helps that.

People shouldn't wilfully deceive themselves though. The truth is better than a delusion, even if it's less comforting.

Why is it better again?

Knoyleo wrote:I'm an atheist, but certainly a very different kind of atheist than I was, say, 10 years ago.

Back in my late teens and early 20s, I was definitely one of those extremely online, capital-A, atheists, and quite frankly, I'm embarrassed that I used to be that way. I wasn't just irreligious, but actually very anti religion, and got into my fair share of shouting matches on here, on PoopGang, and anywhere else on the Internet.

Like a lot of things in that time of my life, my edgelord years, I found comfort, and invested myself heavily, in identities and subcultures that provided a facsimile of self worth, by making me feel like I was better than other people. Being not just atheist, but anti theist, automatically I thought, made me smarter, more liberal, and more moral, than people who followed a religion, because I was right, and they supported institutions that had done nothing but harm and hinder the world.

This was of course all bullshit, but it's what I felt at the time, and like I say, I thought if I aligned myself with enough edgy beliefs, they alone would validate me as a "better" person.

I think one of the things that helped me change, was the same turn that has seen so many young men and women online, head off down the alt right rabbit hole, that I thankfully avoided. Internet atheism got more and more Islamophobic, and although I was the kind of dickhead who used to browse 4ch*n and that stuff at the time, I couldn't square the racism I found coming out of online atheist communities in attacking Muslims, with my own atheist non belief. I stepped away from online atheism as a thing, and never looked back. I avoided the "skeptic" communities, and when gamer gate boiled over, led by atheist community figures, I was glad that I'd turned my back on it. I never bought the nonsense idea of "Islam isn't a race" and suddenly, I was one of those hypocrites who attacks Christians and Christianity, but won't say anything bad about Muslims and Islam. And you know what I discovered? Christians and Christianity are fine. I actually like them a lot. And people of all sorts of other faiths.

Faiths, throughout history, are fascinating. So many beliefs, that have inspired so many works of art, pieces of music, fantastic buildings, and stories that have lived for thousands of years.

I'm actually very jealous of people who really believe in something. I can't imagine what it must feel like to know that there's a life after death, or rebirth, or some other device experience out there for us all. I wish I had something in my life that could be that pure, and something I could devote myself to without question. But I can't make myself believe, and it would be foolish to do so. I'd be falling into the same trap that made me an obnoxious banana split to good people, adopting an identity to give myself some sense of worth. Instead, I just accept that I'll never have that, and that's OK with me now.

That said, I haven't thrown out my beliefs about the bad things that have happened in religion. Some of the most abhorrent acts have been carried out by people in the name of a god they believed in, and used to justify their acts. My anger and dislike is better placed now, though, and my problems with religion are explained much the same way as my problems with a lot of other bad things in the world. Institutions, with imbalanced power, will always be a force for bad. My dislike of religious institutions is now much more informed by my Anarchist beliefs, than my atheist ones.

I would never want to deny anyone the personal religious moments that can bring so much comfort to the vulnerable. By that same logic, I absolutely want to see the power of institutions that would exploit those vulnerable people, stripped away.

Ultimately, I'm very sorry that I have upset a lot of very good people, by attacking their faith, in bad faith. I acted like I was trying to enlighten them, but I was only trying to create within myself, a sense of self with. I feel awful for the way I used to speak to Scotticus on here at times, because he was never anything but friendly and open towards me, but I attacked his beliefs, and now I can never apologise to him. At the very least, if he was right, maybe he'll see this.

P.S. I typed this all out on my phone, and it's probably full of typos and auto corrects, but it's too fiddly to go back and edit.

You seem like a nice person Knoyleo. We all do stuff at certain times in our life that then when we get older and change we realize it was flawed. Don't sweat it!

Jenuall wrote:

Hexx wrote:

Jenuall wrote:I do believe that the vast majority of people who follow Christianity just want to be good people, and that is probably true for most of the major faiths as well.

No one needs to follow a religion to be good.

Okay... I never said anyone had to follow a religion to be good?

No but if they want to be "good" there's absolutely no need to join an inherently foul organisation. If fact if they want to be "good" they're probably avoid the insinuations all together. Are they good elements? Maybe. But "religion" are unquestionably a net bad when all affects added up.

Anyway I might be jaded, but from experience most people don't join religions to be good.

They join religions to be TOLD they're good and will be rewarded by some magic all knowing referee.

Religions act as though they are a "cheat sheet" to the universe - but in reality they just use it as "get out of jail" free for horrific actions.

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I don't understand how people can willfully deceive themselves, though. Surely you either believe it's true or you don't. Surely something being a nice thing to believe doesn't override logical reasoning?!

Hello I would like to introduce you to humans

We're not rational actors, we satisfice more than we rigorously assess, cognitive dissonance and the numerous psychological tricks to relieve it are prevalent, and we are all subject to multiple, well document fallacies in thinking. All of which can contribute to people willfully changing their sincerely held beliefs, or happily existing in a state of doublethink.

It's more surprising I think that logical reasoning is as common as it is, and I would hazard that it's only complex, well-developed society that grants it any Darwinian advantage because of the scale we now operate at.

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I don't understand how people can willfully deceive themselves, though. Surely you either believe it's true or you don't. Surely something being a nice thing to believe doesn't override logical reasoning?!

I once had a Christian bloke trying to convert me by telling me “If you just follow Jesus Christ then what do you have to lose? If it is true then you go to heaven, if it is not then you haven’t lost anything”.

My reply was that I would lose quite a lot if I wasted my life following a religion I didn’t believe in. And if God was real, then (if he is omnipotent) he’d know I hadn’t been sincere.

Johnny Ryall wrote:Don’t beat yourself up, the PG era may as well have been a lifetime ago. I can’t remember a single drama from that time.

Beautiful moments, lost to time like tears in rain

Agree with the filthy Scot though Knoy. Of my very few remaining memories of PG, you being a frothing anti-Christian is not one of them. Also - and I want to tread carefully here - Scotty, whilst I'm sure a good person underneath it all, could be incredibly stubborn when he had his mind made up about something. Essentially, what I'm saying is don't beat yourself up for what was essentially a bunch of 15-20 year olds throwing testosterone all over the place.

Plus you have a fine ass.

Abacus wrote:

Preezy wrote:People shouldn't wilfully deceive themselves though. The truth is better than a delusion, even if it's less comforting.

Why is it better again?

I get that if you're an old lonely person desperately scared of dying then the thought of an afterlife can be comforting and quite harmless (although personally, spending ETERNITY mooching around with my family praising God and Jesus whilst eating Philadelphia sounds a bit tedious). Sure, that old person is probably wrong, but if it comforts them then fine. I wouldn't tell an old relative that they were about to enter the infinite nothingness, I'm not a (complete) knobhead. But if some guy knocks on my door and promises me a Heavenly afterlife I'm going to pick holes in his beliefs without mercy.

The concept of Heaven also raises more of those silly questions I get in my head from time to time, the ones I'd love to ask a priest but would probably be asked to leave :

- If you're surrounded by family and friends in Heaven, how far back in your family tree does that extend to? I don't know my great-great-great-great-great uncle, but I assume he'd be there waiting for me too?
- Are there dinosaurs in Heaven? Are there pre-humans like Homo-Erectus? Are there Neanderthals in Heaven? Do they speak English?
- Are there monster trucks in Heaven? Do they run on petrol or something more eco-friendly?
- Are you allowed to have sex in Heaven?
- What temperature is it in Heaven? Is there air conditioning or central heating?
- Do you sleep in Heaven? Where are all the beds? Do you get your own room?
- When you get to Heaven are you the person you were when you died, or do you go back to the "prime" years before you got dementia or lost your legs etc?
- Are there animals in Heaven? If yes, are there wild animals? Do they all hunt each other?
- When the universe eventually dies as a result of entropy, what happens to Heaven?

I realise I'm being facetious but I think the more questions you ask the clearer it becomes that any concept of an afterlife that you can think of begins to unravel into fantasy pretty quickly.

Preezy is going to feel so stupid when he gets to heaven and sees Jesus tearing up the joint in his monster truck.

Tomous wrote:Preezy is going to feel so stupid when he gets to heaven and sees Jesus tearing up the joint in his monster truck.

Do you have to have a driving license in Heaven or can anyone drive a monster truck? Can my blind cousin who has never seen drive a monster truck? Are there traffic lights or some sort of road system? Are there police in Heaven? etc etc etc ad nauseum

Preezy wrote:I realise I'm being facetious but I think the more questions you ask the clearer it becomes that any concept of an afterlife that you can think of begins to unravel into fantasy pretty quickly.

Your idea of an afterlife is quite narrowly defined to be one in which you're still an individual human person in a human body living by Earthly laws.

All of your questions are meaningless for example if someone imagines an afterlife to be a disembodied collective consciousness or something equally more abstract.

To specifically address this question:

When the universe eventually dies as a result of entropy, what happens to Heaven?

It's my understanding that Judgment Day is a pretty fundamental concept in Christianity and the Abrahamic religions as a whole, so the priest's response to this question would probably be that the last judgment will come about long before then.

Preezy wrote:

Abacus wrote:

Preezy wrote:People shouldn't wilfully deceive themselves though. The truth is better than a delusion, even if it's less comforting.

Why is it better again?

I get that if you're an old lonely person desperately scared of dying then the thought of an afterlife can be comforting and quite harmless (although personally, spending ETERNITY mooching around with my family praising God and Jesus whilst eating Philadelphia sounds a bit tedious). Sure, that old person is probably wrong, but if it comforts them then fine. I wouldn't tell an old relative that they were about to enter the infinite nothingness, I'm not a (complete) knobhead. But if some guy knocks on my door and promises me a Heavenly afterlife I'm going to pick holes in his beliefs without mercy.

The concept of Heaven also raises more of those silly questions I get in my head from time to time, the ones I'd love to ask a priest but would probably be asked to leave :

- If you're surrounded by family and friends in Heaven, how far back in your family tree does that extend to? I don't know my great-great-great-great-great uncle, but I assume he'd be there waiting for me too?
- Are there dinosaurs in Heaven? Are there pre-humans like Homo-Erectus? Are there Neanderthals in Heaven? Do they speak English?
- Are there monster trucks in Heaven? Do they run on petrol or something more eco-friendly?
- Are you allowed to have sex in Heaven?
- What temperature is it in Heaven? Is there air conditioning or central heating?
- Do you sleep in Heaven? Where are all the beds? Do you get your own room?
- When you get to Heaven are you the person you were when you died, or do you go back to the "prime" years before you got dementia or lost your legs etc?
- Are there animals in Heaven? If yes, are there wild animals? Do they all hunt each other?
- When the universe eventually dies as a result of entropy, what happens to Heaven?

I realise I'm being facetious but I think the more questions you ask the clearer it becomes that any concept of an afterlife that you can think of begins to unravel into fantasy pretty quickly.

Also:

- What if one of your loved ones doesn’t make it into Heaven? Do they get a free pass into Heaven so that you are happy, or do you have the choice to leave Heaven so that you can be with them?
- What age are people in Heaven? I don’t mean physically, but people change mentally as they get older. Does a very young child in Heaven spend eternity with the personality of a toddler? Does a grumpy old person stay grumpy for eternity?
- If repenting and accepting Jesus is all that is required to enter, could Hitler, Fred West and Ann Widdecombe be there?

OrangeRKN wrote:

Preezy wrote:I realise I'm being facetious but I think the more questions you ask the clearer it becomes that any concept of an afterlife that you can think of begins to unravel into fantasy pretty quickly.

Your idea of an afterlife is quite narrowly defined to be one in which you're still an individual human person in a human body living by Earthly laws.

All of your questions are meaningless for example if someone imagines an afterlife to be a disembodied collective consciousness or something equally more abstract.

Well yes, I thought it was obvious that this was all based on the regular Judaeo-Christian concept of "Heaven", but fair enough I take your point.

But again, if we decide that the afterlife is some cosmic cloud:

- who is driving the cloud? I want to visit Alpha Centauri - will the cloud ever go there?
- does the cloud have one collective voice, or is it billions of voices all chipping in with their stupid opinions?
- are there monster trucks in the cloud?
- if I get sick of being a cosmic cloud, can I end my existence altogether?
- can we play music in the cloud? If yes can we ban music?
- is Jesus in the cloud? Does he still have his beard?

etc etc

Moggy wrote:

Somebody Else's Problem wrote:Atheist. Not sure how to say how active I am in it, because by default it involves not doing anything.

You’ve not been invited to the meetings?

Shut uuup!