Where should The Legend Of Zelda go next?

Alvin Flummux wrote:There's not much more we can discuss on this line of thought anyhow, I've stated my interpretation and they have theirs. What more can we do? Our idea of making a Fable-style Zelda is awesome, let's discuss that.

Yes, lets. Imagine a Fable-style adventure throughout a MASSIVE version of Hyrule (they could make it even bigger than Fable 2's Albion, due to less disc space being used by fancy HD stuff), and instead of a few dungeons, have many caverns, some of which have a monster at the end holding a piece of the Triforce. Your main quest is to collect the pieces of the Triforce, then go to the Temple Of Light with them. Once you've done that, you must find the sages, who have taken the form of normal people (not obviously special people, as before). You must track down these people, and assemble them all in the Temple Of Light. You do this by exploring, talking and doing sidequests to build up enough fame for people to chat to you. Once they are assembled, they take on their true forms, and entrust their powers to you and give you the Master Sword in order for you to defeat Ganondorf.

You will not be allowed to just randomly wander into people's houses and ransack the place. Either you are invited in, or you commit a crime. Your equipment has to be bought, instead of found in caverns, and you earn your money through doing sidequests or through selling fish that you catch. The combat is mainly sword-based (obviously), and uses MotionPlus.

It'd be nice to include the odd dungeon here and there - just mix them up with the caverns (they can co-exist, right?), and employ the idea earlier suggested wherein the boss might be found toward the start or middle of the dungeon, leaving the rest to be the means by which you get out.

As well as that, I think it'd also be pretty cool if monsters battling one another could interrupt your cavern/dungeon journeys briefly on occasion, through the occasional cut scene - like, two gigantic winged beasts you'll encounter later on smash through the roof of the cavern whilst "arguing", then proceed to take their fight through a wall leading back outside, leaving you to try to navigate the debris.

Alvin Flummux wrote:It'd be nice to include the odd dungeon here and there - just mix them up with the caverns (they can co-exist, right?), and employ the idea earlier suggested wherein the boss might be found toward the start or middle of the dungeon, leaving the rest to be the means by which you get out.

As well as that, I think it'd also be pretty cool if monsters battling one another could interrupt your cavern/dungeon journeys briefly on occasion, through the occasional cut scene - like, two gigantic winged beasts you'll encounter later on smash through the roof of the cavern whilst "arguing", then proceed to take their fight through a wall leading back outside, leaving you to try to navigate the debris.

Nintendo should employ us.

Personally, I think the new Zelda has to do only a few things differently to make it feel fresh again yet still feel very much like a Zelda game. If you don't feel like an epic read, leave the spoiler tags closed.

1) Mix up the dungeon - mini boss- item - boss killed via item mechanic.


2) Mix up the become a "hero/early dungeons - epic fail/get Master Sword - save world/late game - finale" formula


3) Increase the difficulty


4) Make the world feel alive.


5) Epic Plot and sense of adventure and exploration.



So here is my idea. Hopefully it will encompass all my earlier points:

The new game has Link in the employ of Hyrule as a soldier, or some early game event leads him to becoming Link-like. Hyrule is under threat from an evil army. For argument's sake, Ganondorf is building it somehow. Link then finds himself having to defend Hyrule from this threat. Sounds very TP like without the Twilight Realm so far I guess.

Hyrule can't defend itself from the overwhelming forces, with a set-piece or two of enemies invading areas en-masse with Link holding alongside some guards. But this is a sidepoint. Link's main objectives will be to find allies for Hyrule to hold their enemy back. Instead of just gaining the standard races help, Link must also travel further afield (possibly overseas via boat as it'll feel more important) to find allies. At some point we'll find out his is destined to save Hyrule and is a tri-force holder and so gets the Master Sword, but that's a given.

Now I know you think I've disregarded point 5 entirely so I'll explain my ideas for dungeons. One or two dungeons could contain a monster that is causing the locals particular trouble and so Link is sent it to sort them out. The dungeon mix up mentioned in point 2 where you fight the boss first and then must escape could fit well here.

In other scenarios, Link is trying to access another nation but the pathway is blocked. His alternate route is through a dungeon along a mountainside where he will emerge the other side. This particular dungeon could even have a return leg. In a similar vein, Ganondorf may be sending troops from a certain area and in order to hold them back a chokepoint needs blocking so Link scales a mountain to create a rockslide to do the job. Then you can have standard style dungeons disguised as gaining favour with foreign nations.

Some great ideas there Roon.

A couple of people have mentioned it like you and I have to say I think starting the game with Link being a Hylian guard would be absolutely magnificent. I can just imagine the opening in some dusty camp at dusk with link sitting around a campfire with loads of soldiers, mute, while they talk about the looming threat. If this then acted as setting the story it would be so good, for Zelda fans especially, you could have various groups discussing legends of old (the idea being that this is a more progressed Hyrule just before the great flood in which the legends of the Hero of Time are becoming just that, legends), you could interact with soldiers by having them train you to fight in a sort of combat school. There could also be a couple of hours of questing just small stuff like searching out peoples weapons, relaying messages for generals and the like, all the time the sense of impending doom of the coming fight would loom over head. If you imagine this all taking place in a temporary camp (Something perhaps not to dissimilar to Ordon and it's surrounding area) it would almost be like LOTR and the people of Rohan waiting for Sarumans attack in Helms Deep.

Once the scene had been set after 5-10 hours the battle could occur, I think Nintendo touched on big scale combat in TP with the field to the north of Kakariko, particularly the first time you enter there's like a swarm of Boar's and moblins with their general. It would be like that but on a much grander scale, sort of like what was hinted at in the very first trailer with hoards of enemies coming over the horizon...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h73I-S49N ... re=related

Except instead of Link riding into combat alone with Epona he'd be flanked by many allies, arrows whistling overhead, rain pouring, after the initial charge a scripted event could knock you off the horse and then you'd be completely embroiled in the combat with fights going on all around you. I'm not sure how possible any of this would be on the Wii but if they did that I'd be in heaven.

As awesome as it sounds to me I don't think Nintendo will go in this direction, the dabbled with a grand scale in Twilight Princess so for the next one I think they'll take the series somewhere unexpected like MM is to OOT and WW is to TP.

All your other stuff sounds great as well Roon aside from the difficulty. Twilight Princess was damn hard in places and I think one of the problems with making it harder is how different people approach the game. Most of us on here are likely to go through exploring gooseberry fool loads as we do, picking up every last heart piece and rupee. It gets to the stage later on in the game where you one player could have 10 hearts another could have 15 so hiking up the difficulty might make things annoyingly hard for some. I think they got the balance just about spot on in TP I died a fair few times and I was getting everything along the way so that when I faced Ganondorf for the first time, I did so with 20 hearts.

And an Orchestral Soundtrack is an absolute must, Galaxy decided that.

If only we had the collective talent to make that a reality.

Herbi wrote:[youtubeuk]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h73I-S49NFI[/youtubeuk]

That trailer still gives me the shivers. E3 2004 was brilliant. I guess I still want what that trailer seemed to promise.

You've painted a pretty picture in your post. That sense of foreboding would really be needed. Making the game pre-flood and as the run up to the flood is a stroke of genius. A pre-flood Zelda will never get made by Nintendo because Link wouldn't be allowed to fail, but it would be the perfect setting for such a game.

I also agree that our vision wouldn't get made by Nintendo next time around but I can still dream. As for the difficulty, I never got more than 15 hearts in TP. I think the only thing I feared were the Iron Knuckles but they only appear in the latter stages. But I will reiterate that I never had to fill all my bottles with fairies to the degree I did in OOT. I guess knowing the boss battle mechanic and general game formula, plus being ten years older makes things a lot easier.

Did you play TP on GC or Wii, Alvin?

You wouldn't mean something like this, MCN?:





Arrow keys: Move
Enter: Sword
Space: Boomerang

It's buggy (Hey, it was designed in a very short space of time!), but I'm sure it gives you a bit of an idea of what could be possible. If only I had an artist to create the custom graphics.

You might need to click inside the Flash box to get it to work once it loads.

Link doesn't need to fail in the "Pre-Flood" Twilight Princess either (If it's written right, he could always still "win"). The people just never got to be told the story of what really happened that day...

Roon - Wii, but it never fails to irritate me that the map and game world is the mirror of the original vision.

The Alchemist Penguin wrote:Link doesn't need to fail in the "Pre-Flood" Twilight Princess either (If it's written right, he could always still "win"). The people just never got to be told the story of what really happened that day...

Back when TP was a speck on the horizon, I was the only one around here banging on about how great it'd be for the pre-flood Link to be forgotten, an unknown hero in times of the greatest horror and turmoil imaginable. I'm not trying to take credit for the idea, many will have had it before me I'm sure, but it's something that would make a great change. For once, there would be a tragic Link.

His unknown story would be the preservation of the Hylian royal line.

The Alchemist Penguin wrote:You wouldn't mean something like this, MCN?:





Arrow keys: Move
Enter: Sword
Space: Boomerang

It's buggy (Hey, it was designed in a very short space of time!), but I'm sure it gives you a bit of an idea of what could be possible. If only I had an artist to create the custom graphics.

You might need to click inside the Flash box to get it to work once it loads.

Link doesn't need to fail in the "Pre-Flood" Twilight Princess either (If it's written right, he could always still "win"). The people just never got to be told the story of what really happened that day...

That is great! May I request that you stick at that one? It would be interesting to see what a 2D Zelda could be like if made by fans these days.

Alvin Flummux wrote:Back when TP was a speck on the horizon, I was the only one around here banging on about how great it'd be for the pre-flood Link to be forgotten, an unknown hero in times of the greatest horror and turmoil imaginable.

You weren't the only one! Myself and (I think) Herbi talked about it ages ago too. I actually thought that when it started to rain near the end of Twilight Princess they were about to unveil the flood as a massive and unexpected twist. Never happened, instead we got Princess Tennis.

Alvin Flummux wrote:Roon - Wii, but it never fails to irritate me that the map and game world is the mirror of the original vision.

It being mirrored annoyed me no end. I want to play the GC version just to play it the right way round (but that would probably mess with my head now)

I still think that Nintendo would consider anything but total victory for Link as failure. Fans would love to see pre-flood tragic Link, but new players wouldn't get it. Without having played OOT and WW, even with explanation it will make a flood seem like a fail for those players.

Tiarny and I were musing that maybe TP was supposed to be the game we are describing now. But due to a lack of a gimmick that could go hand in hand with it, and without resorting to using an old gimmick they went and created the Twilight Realm and Wolf Link. Perhaps at the cost of our and their vision, perhaps not.


Brilliant little Flash demo there, Tiarny. Go back to it one day.

MCN wrote:That is great! May I request that you stick at that one? It would be interesting to see what a 2D Zelda could be like if made by fans these days.

LTTP basically got me into gaming so making a Zelda (even a fan made one) would be like bringing the cycle full circle. Unfortunately, to make a good one it would probably take 2 years, probably even more and while it would be alright as a hobby on the side I do hope to make a career out of it and "HIRE ME! LOOK AT MY FAN MADE ZELDA GAME!" just wouldn't be a professional thing to show to any potential employers. So I'm "forced" to do something original.

Since I'm still very much an amateur I find it good learning experience to build certain game engines and try and imagine how they work. That file was from something I made a few months ago, and sadly I don't really have the time to continue with it. Plus without an artist (or someone to design the music) I'm forced to rip everything from the old games, which seriously limits its creativity. I'll just have to save it in the folder marked "Dream Projects".

Funnily enough, the flipped map never annoyed me. For me, the flipped version is the right version simply because it's the one I played.

But it doesn't match the OOT map, and knowing that it is supposed to match really bugs you.

I've come up with a gimmick for our game. Partially inspired by TP, we can simply have Link as the Hero of Nature where he can command animals. I can think up some interesting scenarios with that, and it isn't too intrusive.


Also, if you made a game that depicts the adventures of Tiarny through err...GRcadia that just so happens to be Zelda-esque that would be two birds with one stone. Graphics and music will hold you back though. That's how my ambitions using RPGmaker usually end. I can create a mean plot though.

Roonmastor wrote:But it doesn't match the OOT map, and knowing that it is supposed to match really bugs you.

I've come up with a gimmick for our game. Partially inspired by TP, we can simply have Link as the Hero of Nature where he can command animals. I can think up some interesting scenarios with that, and it isn't too intrusive.


Also, if you made a game that depicts the adventures of Tiarny through err...GRcadia that just so happens to be Zelda-esque that would be two birds with one stone. Graphics and music will hold you back though. That's how my ambitions using RPGmaker usually end. I can create a mean plot though.

The Stories of Cleda: Commander of Nature!
Adventures through the realm of (g)Rcadia.

I like it.
The title sounds a bit "Bald Space Marine" with the use of Commander, though!

I suppose what didn't bother me about the flipped map is that even if you compare it to the Ocarina of Time map, Zora's Domain is up at the top, and takes up most of the map while Death Mountain is in the East, and runs off in a completely different direction, so those locations have essentially switched places and Hyrule Castle and Town are in the centre, while they used to be far north. I didn't find it that similar anyway, so it never bothered me so much. Although the fact most Zeldas are meant to be in the same place, despite the map being completely different means I've gotten used to it, I suppose.

The thing about commanding animals is, well, we commanded little characters in WW and statues in TP, and the masks in MM had a similar effect. Animal costumes with linked abilities, perhaps? Like... an Owl one that's also a throwback to OOTs Owl, it's feathery with Rito-like wings and an awesome feathery Hero hat, it lets you see in the dark and fly a short way while wearing it.. Stuff like that. It's another take on the masks and different "suits" theme I guess.

Alvin Flummux wrote:The thing about commanding animals is, well, we commanded little characters in WW and statues in TP, and the masks in MM had a similar effect. Animal costumes with linked abilities, perhaps? Like... an Owl one that's also a throwback to OOTs Owl, it's feathery with Rito-like wings and an awesome feathery Hero hat.. Stuff like that. It's another take on the masks and different "suits" theme I guess.

That's basically the masks all over again, though. While if you have him control actual animals it gives you the ability to create some pretty interesting puzzles. The masks in Majora's Mask first appeared as side items in Ocarina of Time, so it would make sense to expand the small ideas in the older games into a bigger project. I wouldn't consider controlling the Seaqull, or the Hawk to really take away from controlling OVER 25 WONDERFUL CREATURES!

And I got the best dungeon idea ever:
Dungeon 5: Penguin Palace

The Alchemist Penguin wrote:I wouldn't consider controlling the Seaqull, or the Hawk to really take away from controlling OVER 25 WONDERFUL CREATURES!

Statues in the Tower of the Gods, Makar, Medli, statues in the Temple of Time, Eagles and Seagulls.

The Legend of Zelda: To the Edge of the Ocean

A return to the Wind Waker Visuals as well as the slightly more whimsical story. Nintendo converted a few new fans with Phantom Hourglass, as well as making a game that appealed to core fans so it makes financial and creative sense to go this way. I doubt Nintendo would make any sort of 'gritty' game to appeal to such a small portion of their fan/user base. Mario Galaxy didn't deviant from its whimsical nature and that was awesome!

Plot: Link ends up being stranded on a small ocean by Tetra and her crew, who are sailing off to find a huge treasure rumoured to exist at the edge of the ocean: a place of monsters and legends where no-one has ever returned from. Link gets left behind because he would have objected to the whole notion as being too dangerous. Stranded on an island, Link has to fashion a small boat and get rowing in the hope of finding civilization.

Whilst crossing the ocean link gets rescued by non-other than Capt. Linebeck who takes Link to a huge port town styled like the seaside towns in Kiki's delivery service and Tales of Earthsea: sprawling places full of traders, noise, adventurers and fortune seekers. This forms the central hub in much the same way as clock town in Majoras Mask, and is populated by a similar amount of memorable characters.

Link convinces linebeck to help him go find tetra but linebeck knows all too well the dangers of the sea and so needs a bigger ship and more importantly a capable crew to help them sail there. This forms the main focus of the adventuring and the story: Link travels around the bigger ocean visiting the various nations in the search for help and allies. No main villain and no 'collect x amount of shards to gain access to y' gameplay. With a big enough ship and a big enough crew link can finally sail to the legendary edge of the ocean to find tetra and whatever else lurks there.....

Gameworld: A return to the sailing gameplay of WW and PH, but with a much larger ocean to explore with larger islands representing the main nations (Goron, Rito, Deku, Human/Hylian) which might be 4-5 times the size of windfall island each way, each with a similar size settlement to explore.
The sea itself gets more treacherous the further you go, so link and linebeck can only explore a small portion to begin with, and as link gets access to a larger vessel so can he traverse stormier seas. The map would also be annotatable in the same was as PH, with the pointer used for drawing and a keyboard for making notes. The sea would also be littered with smaller islands to explore as well. The Zora return, but have an underwater domain much like Atlantis!

Gameplay: Kinda like Monkey Island, link has to build a crew of the various races to help him sail a larger ship to the edge of the ocean. Link must travel to the various nations and recruit crew members. This would include some memorable scenes like linebeck fighting a goron pirate in a bar (and getting his ass kicked) and him drawing on his list of 'contacts'. The main recruitment might involve helping out the various races in the way link normally does, with dungeons involved along the way (but not necessarily all the time) with him perhaps having to rescue a band of trapped goron miners from their mine in an effort to gain a fuel source for his ship or perhaps proving himself in combat in a more fight-oriented dungeon. And of course, the Zora dungeon would be a mind-bending, hair tearing water temple of immense magnitude. Because its Nintendo.
Items would be gone and instead replaced by abilities. WTF? I hear you cry? You cant get rid of items from zelda games! Well, links main arsenal might include 3-4 core items (which are modelled on his person as suggested) such as a bow, grapeling hook and so on, but he learns how to combine these items in ingenius ways, for example tying a rope to his bow to replace a hookshot. Combat techniques might also be used as well, a sword technique for smashing rocks learned from the gorons used instead of bomb lets say.

As Links crew grows so does his vessel and herein lies a huge amount of customisability in terms of ship building. You have a list of stats for your vessel, and can choose to build a huge, lumbering battleship or a fast, nimble cutter depending on the parts you choose and your own preferences. Perhaps a DLC of frivolous add-ons might add a touch of personalisation to precedings. Ship battles also come into it, takign a cue from skies of arcadia in that you have to battle rival vessels and then board them to swag their loot.

Id also bring back the alternate characters from Majoras Mask, so when in the goron mine one gets to play as a goron who helps link in his quest. Later on he might need to get the goron member of his crew to perform a task instead of link, and so play passes to him. This increases the role of the crew and also makes them seem like more of a party instead of just a group of links friends.

Bosses: Bosses would appear at the various dungeons, as well as in the overworld. Id love to fight a giant sea titan with my ship, perhaps using ice arrows as a means to kill him.

Controls: Personally id leave the main control scheme unchanged from TP, although motionplus support would be added (and bundled) to make swordplay a little more engaging. Motion controls would come into play during various different parts of the gameplay, perhaps a wii-boxing style punch set with linebeck in a bar fight, a rowing motion used to row the initial vessel and the remote used as a rudder to steer your main vessel later on. An optional swimming minigame would require much arm flailing to keep up with a zora! With less items comes less inventory management, with each item mapped to a specific button and then a combination used to different uses.

Innovations: For a start the huge amount of motion control used for the in-game tasks. It worked brilliantly in Metroid Prime 3 and would work well in zelda. A little more subtlety to the combat would be nice, although not too much. Battles in zelda have to be quick and engaging, not drawn out FF conflicts. The main focus of the combat would be fun, with small moves having various comical effects on the bad guys (like WW) as opposed to a DMC-like amount of depth. A plot based on teamwork and friendship as opposed to urgency and evil would make a refreshing change for any adventure game. There would be no main villain at all, instead much like shadow of the collossus there is just a main end-goal.

Pirates are cool, and a heavy dose of ghibli-whimsy, cartoony characters and violence would be a breath of fresh air in the current gaming climate. If you want apocalyptic battles and plots go play Fallout 3 and Fable 2. I want a Zelda game that makes me laugh and fall in love with the characters, not another empty save the world scenario. I cant recall any memorable characters in TP, but WW was full of them, as was Okami. This speaks volumes in my eyes. Yes, this wouldnt be a difficult game to finish, but it would be sizable and more importantly a great experience.

and that is how I would make the next Zelda game.

Great ideas Carlos and perhaps most amazing, this is the direction I think Nintendo will go in.

I'm not sure the sea really needs to be that much bigger than it was in WW though, I'm sure it would give it a grander scale but sailing from one edge of the map to the other in WW took ages. Perhaps if your ship acted almost like a little town and you could set a destination and put it on auto pilot while you wandered around playing some mini-games a bigger sea could be a nice way of making things seem more dramatic.

I'm also not really sure about the whole constant recruitment drive, I mean if Tetra were to leave of her own accord and Link didn't want to go it seems a bit strange that he would go around rounding up recruits to go and force her back, especially if she doesn't want to come back. I think a better way to do it would be to have Tetra send you a distress letter, or maybe a crew member washes up on the shore to tell you about her capture by someone who knew her real identity (Vaati?). With the plot of the game set up I think then if you took Link's little fishing boat and used it to cross the seas recruiting people for a vast ship all the while collecting money to pay for it there would be a nice little mini adventure there. It would basically act as the Collect Y>Fail - Collect X>Succeed sort of thing but it would be nicely disguised by say not forcing you to pick certain people, there could be 7 or so islands accessible by your small fishing boat each with a couple of choice of potential crew members and who you hired could impact on stuff later in the game, not in any great way but perhaps if you recruited a master archer as opposed to a master swordsman.

Once you'd got your crew, you could return to the main port town and buy yourself a big ass ship, you'd have a few choices each with different mini-games aboard them and different attributes (Speed/Agility/Resilience). With ship in hand you set out to the sea to explore that one big Island that was out of your reach (perhaps guided there by a clue to Tetras whereabouts) as soon as you set sail and peeked at your map the world will have expanded 4 fold with now a huge Ocean and 10's more islands, it would be a terrific surprise.

From then on I'm not sure where you'd go but I do really like your idea of getting rid of lots of the weapons and using attributes instead, the hook shot bow and arrow is inspired.