Why are everyone's politics so binary?

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Trelliz
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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Trelliz » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:31 pm

Green Gecko wrote:I'd say the people that think they are stupid are on balance more intelligent given the confidence and room to actually think the way they do.


Yes in a way, it's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect:

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by more heat than light » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:40 pm

Albear wrote:Shouldn't it be "Why is everyone's Politics so binary?"

Why are everyone's politics doesn't read right to me.


Funny thing is I changed it about three times before settling on 'are'. Typical.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Lex-Man » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:27 pm

more heat than light wrote:
Albear wrote:Shouldn't it be "Why is everyone's Politics so binary?"

Why are everyone's politics doesn't read right to me.


Funny thing is I changed it about three times before settling on 'are'. Typical.


Using 'are' is correct in this case, it's to do with singular vs plural thing. You use 'is' for singular and 'are' for plural. The title is referring to everybody so it's a plural.

So:

He is going to the cinema later today.
They are going to the cinema later today.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Lex-Man » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:36 pm

Trelliz wrote:
Green Gecko wrote:I'd say the people that think they are stupid are on balance more intelligent given the confidence and room to actually think the way they do.


Yes in a way, it's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect:


The Dunning-Kruger effect doesn't say anything about people's general intelligence. It's better summed up as "those who know a small amount about a subject tend to massively over estimate their knowledge of the subject."

Anybody, no matter how intelligent they may be on one subject can blunder into another subject and make themselves look like a total fool in another area. I'd actually say this is pretty common among academics, for example Thunderfoot (Youtube 'scientist' from the new Atheism scene) fits the bill pretty well. He's got a PHd but has spent a lot of time making poorly argued anti-feminist videos on Youtube at least partially because he believes he knows a lot more about the subject than he does.

I would say the true mark of an intelligent person is actually catching yourself when you fall foul of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Trelliz » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:02 pm

Interestingly this loops round to the topic - people's politics are so binary because thoughts and opinions that are decisive and extreme come across as knowing what they're talking about to those who are similarly inclined. I wonder if the backlash against experts framed by farage et al is part of this - experts who know things but are pragmatic and say when more evidence is needed before drawing conclusions are seen as weak and indecisive compared to ideologues and demagogues who take action, almost regardless of what that action is or how detrimental it may be.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Dannie Lennox » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:48 pm

more heat than light wrote:Why are everyone's politics so binary?

01010011 01110100 01101111 01110000 00100000 01000010 01110010 01100101 01111000 01101001 01110100 00100000 00100001

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by more heat than light » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:52 pm

Dannie Lennox wrote:
more heat than light wrote:Why are everyone's politics so binary?

01010011 01110100 01101111 01110000 00100000 01000010 01110010 01100101 01111000 01101001 01110100 00100000 00100001


Next username. :capnscotty:

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Green Gecko » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:44 am

Trelliz wrote:Interestingly this loops round to the topic - people's politics are so binary because thoughts and opinions that are decisive and extreme come across as knowing what they're talking about to those who are similarly inclined. I wonder if the backlash against experts framed by farage et al is part of this - experts who know things but are pragmatic and say when more evidence is needed before drawing conclusions are seen as weak and indecisive compared to ideologues and demagogues who take action, almost regardless of what that action is or how detrimental it may be.

Interesting theory. Yeah, that's what I was mostly getting at. I think so much of politics is based on emotions and personal experience, rather than rational or scientific thinking. Or rather, rationale within limited knowledge boundaries. Emotionally it is much more satisfying and comforting to be told you are right. Sceptics identity limits in sources of knowledge or even what they have known from information in the past. True imperial scientific method which is just a more practical model of scepticism is supposed to actively disprove a theory until there is no logical possibility besides the hypothesis being correct. But most people emotionally want the reward of being correct. The fastest route to that is finding people and views that agree with you. The lowest common denominator is somewhat inevitable between a very limited range of choices. That's the problem with a two party system like in the US and pretty much the last few elections here. It's pretty much just psychology plus maths.

I think also people more often discuss politics with the goal of being right about something, with no real intention of challenging their view. So the vast majority of discussion about politics is just showboating, which is why it's so dreadfully boring once you get past that and see that all anybody gives a strawberry float about is being correct. I blame schools for that for basing education on facts and truths and falsehoods rather than critical thinking, debate, creativity and invention. It is so much more often being wrong that is more important than being right. And to get there you have to ask questions. Kids aren't taught to ask questions, they're taught to accept answers as absolute truth, even in areas which are hotly contested at that time (largely due to syllabi being decades out of date).

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Rightey » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:03 am

[quote="Karl_"]For what it's worth I feel like I could have a detailed and nuanced chat with you about this, Cora, but I don't think Rightey (an alt-right "libertarian") is engaging in good faith so I am going to leave that subject there, otherwise the argument will just wreck this thread. [/quote]

Yes, Karl, anyone who disagrees with your garbage ideology is part of the ebil alt-right, probably even some kind of Nazi. :lol:

You literally said:

[quote="Karl_"]The modern idea of "work ethic" - that work is a sign of moral character - dates to shortly after the emergence of the capitalist class from the mediaeval burghers.[/quote]

Aesops fable, obviously disproves that because the ants worked hard when they had to, unlike the grasshopper. They had a good work ethic so they didn't end up dead. Whereas the grasshopper obviously lacks this work ethic and it leads to his demise, a moral flaw.

You then just go on to move the goal posts and changed it from work ethic = good being invented by the bourgeois to working constantly = good, which are two totally different things. Obviously some concepts of work changed due to the industrial revolution, but what you said originally is just plainly false.

Last edited by Green Gecko on Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Offensive ableism meme removed
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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Knoyleo » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:09 am

Lex-Man wrote:
more heat than light wrote:
Albear wrote:Shouldn't it be "Why is everyone's Politics so binary?"

Why are everyone's politics doesn't read right to me.


Funny thing is I changed it about three times before settling on 'are'. Typical.


Using 'are' is correct in this case, it's to do with singular vs plural thing. You use 'is' for singular and 'are' for plural. The title is referring to everybody so it's a plural.

So:

He is going to the cinema later today.
They are going to the cinema later today.

Isn't everyone treated grammatically as singular, though? Like it's a singular pronoun for a group, similar to the singular humanity, rather than plural humans.

You would ask "what is everyone doing?" rather than "what are everyone doing?"

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Minty14 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:28 am

Knoyleo wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
more heat than light wrote:
Albear wrote:Shouldn't it be "Why is everyone's Politics so binary?"

Why are everyone's politics doesn't read right to me.


Funny thing is I changed it about three times before settling on 'are'. Typical.


Using 'are' is correct in this case, it's to do with singular vs plural thing. You use 'is' for singular and 'are' for plural. The title is referring to everybody so it's a plural.

So:

He is going to the cinema later today.
They are going to the cinema later today.

Isn't everyone treated grammatically as singular, though? Like it's a singular pronoun for a group, similar to the singular humanity, rather than plural humans.

You would ask "what is everyone doing?" rather than "what are everyone doing?"

EDIT:
Image
nice

I'm pretty sure 'are' is correct, but because of 'politics' rather than 'everyone'. Replace "everyone's" with "his" or "her" in the title and "are" still sounds the most correct.

I've now thought about it so much though, that neither sounds right to me :lol:

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Skarjo » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:09 am

Rightey wrote:
Karl_ wrote:For what it's worth I feel like I could have a detailed and nuanced chat with you about this, Cora, but I don't think Rightey (an alt-right "libertarian") is engaging in good faith so I am going to leave that subject there, otherwise the argument will just wreck this thread.


Yes, Karl, anyone who disagrees with your garbage ideology is part of the ebil alt-right, probably even some kind of Nazi. :lol:

You literally said:

Karl_ wrote:The modern idea of "work ethic" - that work is a sign of moral character - dates to shortly after the emergence of the capitalist class from the mediaeval burghers.


Aesops fable, obviously disproves that because the ants worked hard when they had to, unlike the grasshopper. They had a good work ethic so they didn't end up dead. Whereas the grasshopper obviously lacks this work ethic and it leads to his demise, a moral flaw.

You then just go on to move the goal posts and changed it from work ethic = good being invented by the bourgeois to working constantly = good, which are two totally different things. Obviously some concepts of work changed due to the industrial revolution, but what you said originally is just plainly false.


I mean, Karl did specifically say 'Modern work ethic', not just work ethic.

I think the ants would probably be more in line with 'we need to work to survive' as opposed to 'you need to work because a complex economic systems holds the power, the means of production and all the land so you must serve it survive to the point of your own detriment rather than any actual point of sustenance'.

Unless you're suggesting the ants rise up against and overthrow their queen because I would strawberry floating watch that movie.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Moggy » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:16 am

Skarjo wrote:Unless you're suggesting the ants rise up against and overthrow their queen because I would strawberry floating watch that movie.


Antz 2? Although we should probably recast Woody Allen.....

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Karl_ » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:37 am

Skarjo wrote:I mean, Karl did specifically say 'Modern work ethic', not just work ethic.

I think the ants would probably be more in line with 'we need to work to survive' as opposed to 'you need to work because a complex economic systems holds the power, the means of production and all the land so you must serve it survive to the point of your own detriment rather than any actual point of sustenance'.

I have already explained this. He isn't interested. I appreciate it mate, genuinely, but please don't engage with him, he's just an alt-right troll and he wants the attention / disruption.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Lex-Man » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:19 am

Minty14 wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
more heat than light wrote:
Albear wrote:Shouldn't it be "Why is everyone's Politics so binary?"

Why are everyone's politics doesn't read right to me.


Funny thing is I changed it about three times before settling on 'are'. Typical.


Using 'are' is correct in this case, it's to do with singular vs plural thing. You use 'is' for singular and 'are' for plural. The title is referring to everybody so it's a plural.

So:

He is going to the cinema later today.
They are going to the cinema later today.

Isn't everyone treated grammatically as singular, though? Like it's a singular pronoun for a group, similar to the singular humanity, rather than plural humans.

You would ask "what is everyone doing?" rather than "what are everyone doing?"

EDIT:
Image
nice

I'm pretty sure 'are' is correct, but because of 'politics' rather than 'everyone'. Replace "everyone's" with "his" or "her" in the title and "are" still sounds the most correct.

I've now thought about it so much though, that neither sounds right to me :lol:


I've just looked it up, apperently I'm wrong and 'everyone' is an indefinite pronoun and should be treated as singular.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Hime » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:50 pm

I don't think people's politics are binary, unlike (for lack of a better word) 'conventional' politics Brexit has become so polarising that it's turned into right Vs left and you must pick a side. Most people will have a range of views that are mostly centre with a few that go either side of the spectrum.

As for the other debate in this thread; I think it's a bit unfair to start discussing the semantics of work and it's necessity, automation is a long way of most jobs is a long way off and will probably never happen for a lot of trades. The people who work with those who live in assisted houses and the like shouldn't just be dismissed as demonising the poor.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Green Gecko » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:52 pm

The "reeeeeeeeee" meme originating from 4chan is ablelist against people on the autistic spectrum who suffer from anxiety and "stim", which includes making sounds, spinning and such to calm themselves when overwhelmed with sensory information or are otherwise struggling with their cognitive abilities especially when it comes to communication or busy public spaces. Please do not post it, thanks.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by OrangeRKN » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:53 pm

I genuinely thought "reee" was a jojo reference

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Green Gecko » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:57 pm

I don't know that reference but I've seen the meme grow in recent years. Unfortunately it's been appropriated and conflated by alt right 4chan shitlords typically with dumbass Pepe the frog images to label people autistic because they write a lot or respond hyperverbally and incessantly to things they are passionate about. As well as being a reference to screaming, screeching etc of autistic children. The "reeee" is a satirical onomatopoeia of that behaviour, sometimes it happens with kids that can't communicate verbally. Thus, it's ableist.

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PostRe: Why are everyone's politics so binary?
by Rightey » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:59 am

Skarjo wrote:
Rightey wrote:
Karl_ wrote:For what it's worth I feel like I could have a detailed and nuanced chat with you about this, Cora, but I don't think Rightey (an alt-right "libertarian") is engaging in good faith so I am going to leave that subject there, otherwise the argument will just wreck this thread.


Yes, Karl, anyone who disagrees with your garbage ideology is part of the ebil alt-right, probably even some kind of Nazi. :lol:

You literally said:

Karl_ wrote:The modern idea of "work ethic" - that work is a sign of moral character - dates to shortly after the emergence of the capitalist class from the mediaeval burghers.


Aesops fable, obviously disproves that because the ants worked hard when they had to, unlike the grasshopper. They had a good work ethic so they didn't end up dead. Whereas the grasshopper obviously lacks this work ethic and it leads to his demise, a moral flaw.

You then just go on to move the goal posts and changed it from work ethic = good being invented by the bourgeois to working constantly = good, which are two totally different things. Obviously some concepts of work changed due to the industrial revolution, but what you said originally is just plainly false.


I mean, Karl did specifically say 'Modern work ethic', not just work ethic.

I think the ants would probably be more in line with 'we need to work to survive' as opposed to 'you need to work because a complex economic systems holds the power, the means of production and all the land so you must serve it survive to the point of your own detriment rather than any actual point of sustenance'.

Unless you're suggesting the ants rise up against and overthrow their queen because I would strawberry floating watch that movie.


He didn't say Modern Work Ethic, he said "The modern idea of "work ethic"", implying the idea of work ethic itself is new. He even clarifies what he means by it saying that the modern idea is that "work is a sign of moral character", which clearly its not as there are loads of people who talked about why it's important to have a good work ethic. I think that's a bit different to what Franklin was saying, which is basically time is money so don't waste time, which I think is more reasonable to say was a new idea that came about during industrial times. My issue was that his original statement just sounds like some click bait headline to grab peoples attention.

Green Gecko wrote:I don't know that reference but I've seen the meme grow in recent years. Unfortunately it's been appropriated and conflated by alt right 4chan shitlords typically with dumbass Pepe the frog images to label people autistic because they write a lot or respond hyperverbally and incessantly to things they are passionate about. As well as being a reference to screaming, screeching etc of autistic children. The "reeee" is a satirical onomatopoeia of that behaviour, sometimes it happens with kids that can't communicate verbally. Thus, it's ableist.


Sorry dude, I didn't know that, I didn't mean any offense by it. I thought it was just an angry yell, but since Pepe's a frog it would be high pitched.

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