YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist

OrangeRKN wrote:

rinks wrote:It’s one thing to perform an action in a game. It’s quite another to use a game to animate a series of hate crimes and upload them to YouTube, labelled in such a way that will attract misogynists.

Sums it up for me. Context is king, and from the comments it seems pretty clear this was promoting real-world misogyny. Even if unintended, that's a good justification for youtube removing it.

Yep

Venom wrote:Games are a medium that is mostly, fictional, killing. Bethesda don’t allow killing of child characters in their games for reasons of taste. But should Rockstar do the same with the feminists? But also, some people are racist - should developers prevent the killing of people of colour?

But this wasn't just a female character. It was a feminist. The equivalent you're talking about there is giving the player the option to murder a Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King esque character which, as far as I'm aware, no AAA game has ever done because that would be...terrible.

Venom wrote:What this YouTuber did, i know it’s not nice, to many, but for many others it is harmless humour. Because there are people who are offended is that really enough reason to start asking for censorship of game features and the punishment of people who play a game differently from you?

And this is the problem: what others? Who is finding this funny?

I'm to answer this for you...sexists are finding this funny, 'this' being the player murdering a feminist.

I'm not up for games censoring content if that content is non-discriminatory, but by including a character like this who is freely killable Rockastar knew that some players were going to go to town on her because of their beliefs, beliefs which are emphatically wrong. That was a mistake on their part.

Venom wrote:

Sandy wrote:I would say that Rockstar are complict in this as well. Even in the early 1900s people wouldn't just stand by and watch someone murdering someone in the steet.

I’m not going to lie but I’m actually shocked that you have posted seem to be in favour of such bans - and before anyone starts polishing their pitchfork no I don’t hate feminists!

It’s just that games are not the real world, and to start punishing for others for what they do in game sets a very dangerous precedent.

As Sandy points out, Rockstar gave the public the playground, so should they now start to restrict what can be done in it?

Games are a medium that is mostly, fictional, killing. Bethesda don’t allow killing of child characters in their games for reasons of taste. But should Rockstar do the same with the feminists? But also, some people are racist - should developers prevent the killing of people of colour?

What this YouTuber did, i know it’s not nice, to many, but for many others it is harmless humour. Because there are people who are offended is that really enough reason to start asking for censorship of game features and the punishment of people who play a game differently from you?

Has the uploader been punished? The video got removed, but that's it right? Is anyone asking for the censorship of game features? I think it's fine that this is possible in the game, and I think it's okay for it to be in a youtube video of the game. What's not okay is when content like this is specifically used to promote targeting people with hate in real life. I don't think that was the intention of the video (I think it was just meant as some light humour as you suggest), but that seems to be what it resulted in from the comments. People were viewing it as hate targeted at feminists, and it was contributing towards spreading and reinforcing those ideas as evidenced by the comments.

Women get killed in plenty of films, and no one says that we should ban or censor films depicting women being killed. But if someone uploaded a video to youtube that edited a bunch of clips of women being killed together and it was full of people commenting "I wish I could do this in real life", that seems pretty obviously not okay. With interactive media like videogames the player has even more control and influence over how they portray things from that game, so I think it's easy to see how the game itself can be fine but can be used in a way that isn't.

The way things are going we are heading down a distopian path to 1984/minority report levels where people can be judged on every little thought eventually before they've even really had it. Some times people try to be so progressive and left that they circle around the political line and become practically right wing fascist in there demands for people to think, feel and act only in the ways they deem acceptable.

kerr9000 wrote:The way things are going we are heading down a distopian path to 1984/minority report levels where people can be judged on every little thought eventually before they've even really had it. Some times people try to be so progressive and left that they circle around the political line and become practically right wing fascist in there demands for people to think, feel and act only in the ways they deem acceptable.

So rather than doing my usual thing and going line by line with a post I don't agree with, I want instead to ask you what situation you think would be preferable to the one that's led to the events discussed in this thread.

For the people who are fine with it.

If the guy had a video of him killing a black rights activist repeatedly in worse ways and having various titles for each video would you be ok with that? The person doing it would clearly be making videos that are racist. Is it any different to doing to a femenist? Bearing in mind he's not just doing it to random women, but a woman with a specific political leaning.

OrangeRKN wrote:Women get killed in plenty of films, and no one says that we should ban or censor films depicting women being killed. But if someone uploaded a video to youtube that edited a bunch of clips of women being killed together and it was full of people commenting "I wish I could do this in real life", that seems pretty obviously not okay. With interactive media like videogames the player has even more control and influence over how they portray things from that game, so I think it's easy to see how the game itself can be fine but can be used in a way that isn't.

You’re overlooking one important thing. This isn’t about depictions of killing a woman, it’s about killing a feminist.
The point of the video is to kill that character and that character only because that character has an association with a feminist idea (give women the vote). If the video was just about killing women the context would be acting like a villain in an old western. But that isn’t what this video is claiming to be, it’s intentionally displaying itself as an exhibition of the methods you can use to murder an “annoying feminist”.
Or to put it another way:

Venom wrote:But why should killing in games be okay, and this not?

Isn't that biggest question here? So many obvious contradictions that one hardly knows where to begin.

Unfortunately, out here in the GRcade Re-Educational Correctional Facility For Problematic Opinion Holders (I was exiled to this gulag some years ago), we are absolutely not allowed to voice our opinions on such matters, but I look forward to reading through the doubtless fair and even-handed discussion here.

kerr9000 wrote:The way things are going we are heading down a distopian path to 1984/minority report levels where people can be judged on every little thought eventually before they've even really had it. Some times people try to be so progressive and left that they circle around the political line and become practically right wing fascist in there demands for people to think, feel and act only in the ways they deem acceptable.

Dude, don't have a "progressives are leading us down a dark path through slippery slopes" take in 2018, just don't. It's comically tone deaf.

Society necessarily makes demands on people for how they can act - they are called laws and most people agree with the need for them.

But we aren't even talking about the law here, we are talking about a private website's own policy on what it deems acceptable to host. Youtube saw a video that was attracting misogynistic comments and seemingly promoting and reinforcing those beliefs, and decided to remove it. I don't see why that should be particularly controversial. You'd expect anyone on here to get a warning for the same, wouldn't you?

Dig Dug wrote:

OrangeRKN wrote:Women get killed in plenty of films, and no one says that we should ban or censor films depicting women being killed. But if someone uploaded a video to youtube that edited a bunch of clips of women being killed together and it was full of people commenting "I wish I could do this in real life", that seems pretty obviously not okay. With interactive media like videogames the player has even more control and influence over how they portray things from that game, so I think it's easy to see how the game itself can be fine but can be used in a way that isn't.

You’re overlooking one important thing. This isn’t about depictions of killing a woman, it’s about killing a feminist.
The point of the video is to kill that character and that character only because that character has an association with a feminist idea (give women the vote). If the video was just about killing women the context would be acting like a villain in an old western. But that isn’t what this video is claiming to be, it’s intentionally displaying itself as an exhibition of the methods you can use to murder an “annoying feminist”.

My analogy isn't identical it but I don't think I'm overlooking it - you could replace "women" with "feminists" and my point largely stays the same. Yes there is an additional political context and targeting of specific beliefs, I think I just fell back to women in general because in my mind anti-feminist beliefs/politics and sexism are basically the same thing.

I haven't seen the video or played the game so I am also leaving some room in possible intention of the video for the character herself being annoying (from the video title I'm not sure if the implication is that they are annoying because they are a feminist, or that they are just a feminist who is annoying). Regardless the video was certainly being viewed and commented on as if the intention was to kill the character because she is a feminist, and that's not okay.

I think the only way I'm differing from Taf's opinion is that I don't think it's wrong for this to be possible in the game to begin with. But then I get frustrated with Bethesda for not letting me kill children! I don't agree with it or want to promote it in real life, but if I'm roleplaying a psychopathic necromancer you can sure bet I want to do it in game.

OrangeRKN wrote:I think the only way I'm differing from Taf's opinion is that I don't think it's wrong for this to be possible in the game to begin with. But then I get frustrated with Bethesda for not letting me kill children! I don't agree with it or want to promote it in real life, but if I'm roleplaying a psychopathic necromancer you can sure bet I want to do it in game.

I'm not 100% on this either to be honest. It requires so much asserting of one's own values onto other, unknowable variables.

(I'm still more or less of this opinion though.)

Venom wrote:

Sandy wrote:I would say that Rockstar are complict in this as well. Even in the early 1900s people wouldn't just stand by and watch someone murdering someone in the steet.

I’m not going to lie but I’m actually shocked that you have posted seem to be in favour of such bans - and before anyone starts polishing their pitchfork no I don’t hate feminists!

It’s just that games are not the real world, and to start punishing for others for what they do in game sets a very dangerous precedent.

As Sandy points out, Rockstar gave the public the playground, so should they now start to restrict what can be done in it?

Games are a medium that is mostly, fictional, killing. Bethesda don’t allow killing of child characters in their games for reasons of taste. But should Rockstar do the same with the feminists? But also, some people are racist - should developers prevent the killing of people of colour?

What this YouTuber did, i know it’s not nice, to many, but for many others it is harmless humour. Because there are people who are offended is that really enough reason to start asking for censorship of game features and the punishment of people who play a game differently from you?

I haven't seen the content of the video so I can't judge on that. My complaint is more that all of these companies make these 'realistic' games that allow you to do whatever you want but they don't portray the realistic repercussions or reactions within this game.

It's not realistic to be able to murder whoever you want to in the street and not have people attempt to stop you. Maybe this does happen in the video but none of the articles imply that it does, so I made a presumption.

Cal wrote:

Venom wrote:But why should killing in games be okay, and this not?

Isn't that biggest question here? So many obvious contradictions that one hardly knows where to begin.

Unfortunately, out here in the GRcade Re-Educational Correctional Facility For Problematic Opinion Holders (I was exiled to this gulag some years ago), we are absolutely not allowed to voice our opinions on such matters, but I look forward to reading through the doubtless fair and even-handed discussion here.

Don't feed the troll etc

Wait, you can feed people to the crocodiles in RDR2? That's pretty awesome.

Putting aside for a moment the questionable reasons behind this guys uploading of "101 ways to off a feminist" you have to admire somewhat the level of detail R* have incorporated into RDR2.

Sandy wrote:It's not realistic to be able to murder whoever you want to in the street and not have people attempt to stop you. Maybe this does happen in the video but none of the articles imply that it does, so I made a presumption.

To be fair to the game, any crime you commit in view of other NPCs does get reported and you'll be hunted down by the law or have a bounty put on your head. So there are consequences to your negative actions.

For some reason, the recommendations on YouTube were pushing that video in my suggested viewing hard for the last couple of days. Naturally I wasn't going near it.

I cannot believe that people don't understand why it deserves to be taken down. Either they are being wilfully oblivious or they are remarkably thick. It's a very obvious comparison to make, but how do you imagine the response would be if somebody uploaded a video of GTA V with the heading 'Going into the HOOD and slaughtering BLACK PEOPLE as Michael'?.

Sure, the game technically allows for this to be possible, you can indeed do this. But posting it online is deliberate inflammatory behaviour designed to stoke anger. Argue that it's still freedom of expression, but that does not mean it has to be tolerated or given a free pass. Its a shame that Youtube has reinstated the video, as its removal was one of the few decent actions the platform has made in the last few years. So now people are allowed to promote violence and hatred towards a group, and not even hide this intent.

Can’t anyone else see how a murder/ rape/ abuse simulator could encourage people to try it irl, or at least harbour such thoughts?

I don’t think it should be possible to carry out such atrocities. Does it so radically destroy immersion to remove the ability to attack npc’s (unless of course it’s integral to the game)?

As games become ever more realistic, I think devs should take responsibility to prevent this kind of thing.

Jazzem wrote:

kerr9000 wrote:The way things are going we are heading down a distopian path to 1984/minority report levels where people can be judged on every little thought eventually before they've even really had it. Some times people try to be so progressive and left that they circle around the political line and become practically right wing fascist in there demands for people to think, feel and act only in the ways they deem acceptable.

Dude, don't have a "progressives are leading us down a dark path through slippery slopes" take in 2018, just don't. It's comically tone deaf.

progress is fine and it is going to lead us in the right direction hopefully.... but I don't think trying to shut down peoples thoughts is helpful. I am generally left wing in my thoughts but I do think if you want people to listen to your ideas you should listen to there's as well as apposed to just saying how right you are, sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la im not listening. I am not against progress I just think people stamping demanding there way, and demanding everyone think the way they do is not the right way to go.

If you want other people to not be allowed to put out an opinion be it in a speech or in a video etc then that's a weakness in you/your side in that you don't think you can put across your own argument and win support without having to gag the opposition.