Politics Thread 7: THINGS CAN ONLY GET BETTER - General Election 04/07/24

[Van Foster]

Lol at the use of the word "deplorables" by an individual whose political idols would appear to be the likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Daniel Hannan and Rand Paul. Rand Paul .

[Cuttooth]

twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1793920237701869981

Well put by Starmer, it’s amazing how the interviewers always try their hardest to stop the interviewee getting their point across though.

One thing I do hate about politics is how changing your mind because circumstances have changed seems to be seen and portrayed as some kind of weakness.

twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1793901487904756101

What circumstances have changed where "Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity" has to become "Smash the gangs! Smash them!" along with conflating the concept of safe routes with small boat crossings?

[Moggy]

What circumstances have changed where "Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity" has to become "Smash the gangs! Smash them!" along with conflating the concept of safe routes with small boat crossings?

Free movement in the EU/as we leave the EU is not the same thing as asylum seekers/small boats/trafficking gangs.

[Cuttooth]

What circumstances have changed where "Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity" has to become "Smash the gangs! Smash them!" along with conflating the concept of safe routes with small boat crossings?

Free movement in the EU/as we leave the EU is not the same thing as asylum seekers/small boats/trafficking gangs.

Right, which would be covered by the other bit of his original policy I wrote there, and Adil Ray quoted at him of "an immigration system based on compassion and dignity". The line about putting vulnerable people into small boats as a response to setting up safe and legal routes is completely absurd!

What circumstances caused by the Liz Truss budget means this change in immigration policy is something to be lauded as sensible politics instead of straightforward dishonesty?

[Memento Mori]

An independent Corbyn will absolutely win Islington North.

"Deplorables"

I agree an independent Corbyn win is more likely than a labour win.

Bet £1,000 on it.

But not to that extent.

[Garth]

twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1793946315954528690

[Moggy]

What circumstances have changed where "Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity" has to become "Smash the gangs! Smash them!" along with conflating the concept of safe routes with small boat crossings?

Free movement in the EU/as we leave the EU is not the same thing as asylum seekers/small boats/trafficking gangs.

Right, which would be covered by the other bit of his original policy I wrote there, and Adil Ray quoted at him of "an immigration system based on compassion and dignity". The line about putting vulnerable people into small boats as a response to setting up safe and legal routes is completely absurd!

What circumstances caused by the Liz Truss budget means this change in immigration policy is something to be lauded as sensible politics instead of straightforward dishonesty?

Right, but none of that was said.

You conflated EU freedom of movement with small boat crossings. The two things are not the same.

In that clip, Starmer doesn't say "smash the gangs" as a response to safe routes. He makes the point that the Tory system doesn't work and that crossing the channel in a small boat should never be an option. The clip then (mysteriously!) cuts off halfway through his answer, so I've no idea if he dodged the question on safe routes.

[Qikz]

twitter.com/i/status/1793963069313282486

[Garth]

twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1793967884206481620

[Cuttooth]

What circumstances have changed where "Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity" has to become "Smash the gangs! Smash them!" along with conflating the concept of safe routes with small boat crossings?

Free movement in the EU/as we leave the EU is not the same thing as asylum seekers/small boats/trafficking gangs.

Right, which would be covered by the other bit of his original policy I wrote there, and Adil Ray quoted at him of "an immigration system based on compassion and dignity". The line about putting vulnerable people into small boats as a response to setting up safe and legal routes is completely absurd!

What circumstances caused by the Liz Truss budget means this change in immigration policy is something to be lauded as sensible politics instead of straightforward dishonesty?

Right, but none of that was said.

You conflated EU freedom of movement with small boat crossings. The two things are not the same.

In that clip, Starmer doesn't say "smash the gangs" as a response to safe routes. He makes the point that the Tory system doesn't work and that crossing the channel in a small boat should never be an option. The clip then (mysteriously!) cuts off halfway through his answer, so I've no idea if he dodged the question on safe routes.

No I didn't, I quoted one of Starmer's original ten pledges and compared it to the new rhetoric of his current steps ("Launch a new Border Security Command with hundreds of new specialist investigators and counter-terror powers to smash criminal gangs and strengthen our borders."), which is what Ray is doing in that above clip.

The rest of the answer is about six minutes into this video if you want to see it. Beyond the acceptance of routes set up by the government for Afghan interpreters and Ukrainians, his answer to the question of setting up more safe and legal routes is to broadly repeat that small boat crossings are wrong. It isn't a legitimate answer!



This isn't even the point I'm trying to make though - what circumstances have happened in the last few years where this significant change in policy and rhetoric should be considered sound politics and not transparent dishonesty?

[rinks]

twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1793967884206481620

Nice for him to have the choice, unlike people who are the mercy of the DWP.

[BID0]

For those who have the deplorable Corbyn living rent free in their heads every waking minute

instagram.com/p/C7WYo4Kofqe/

[Moggy]

No I didn't, I quoted one of Starmer's original ten pledges and compared it to the new rhetoric of his current steps ("Launch a new Border Security Command with hundreds of new specialist investigators and counter-terror powers to smash criminal gangs and strengthen our borders."), which is what Ray is doing in that above clip.

The rest of the answer is about six minutes into this video if you want to see it. Beyond the acceptance of routes set up by the government for Afghan interpreters and Ukrainians, his answer to the question of setting up more safe and legal routes is to broadly repeat that small boat crossings are wrong. It isn't a legitimate answer!



This isn't even the point I'm trying to make though - what circumstances have happened in the last few years where this significant change in policy and rhetoric should be considered sound politics and not transparent dishonesty?

I'm still failing to see why you compared it to EU freedom of movement.

In the full interview, he hasn't really announced any significant change of policy either. He doesn't answer the question properly, but I'd imagine that's due to the actual policy is currently being written for the manifesto.

He says small boat crossings are not moral and should be stopped. I don't think anybody disagrees there do we? It's dangerous as strawberry float and people die.

He says it was right to have routes for Afghan interpreters/Ukrainian refugees. Does anyone disagree there?

He doesn't answer regarding other safe routes being opened up as he appears focused on small boats rather than the overall immigration picture. I'm not sure why you think that represents dishonesty or a change of policy. It's either he got side tracked by the dangerous channel crossings, or he was dodging it as the full policy hasn't been fully written yet.

[Curls]

Not sure if I should just vote Labour in North wales - Vale of Clwyd (where Im registered). Or move my vote to Eastleigh(where I now am) and Vote Lib Dem where it may have more of an affect on the Tory hold.

[rinks]

Not sure if I should just vote Labour in North wales - Vale of Clwyd (where Im registered). Or move my vote to Eastleigh(where I now am) and Vote Lib Dem where it may have more of an affect on the Tory hold.

Tactically, the latter.

But also, unless you're only there temporarily, you should register where you're living. It has an effect on things like credit records.

[Cuttooth]

No I didn't, I quoted one of Starmer's original ten pledges and compared it to the new rhetoric of his current steps ("Launch a new Border Security Command with hundreds of new specialist investigators and counter-terror powers to smash criminal gangs and strengthen our borders."), which is what Ray is doing in that above clip.

The rest of the answer is about six minutes into this video if you want to see it. Beyond the acceptance of routes set up by the government for Afghan interpreters and Ukrainians, his answer to the question of setting up more safe and legal routes is to broadly repeat that small boat crossings are wrong. It isn't a legitimate answer!



This isn't even the point I'm trying to make though - what circumstances have happened in the last few years where this significant change in policy and rhetoric should be considered sound politics and not transparent dishonesty?

I'm still failing to see why you compared it to EU freedom of movement.

In the full interview, he hasn't really announced any significant change of policy either. He doesn't answer the question properly, but I'd imagine that's due to the actual policy is currently being written for the manifesto.

He says small boat crossings are not moral and should be stopped. I don't think anybody disagrees there do we? It's dangerous as strawberry float and people die.

He says it was right to have routes for Afghan interpreters/Ukrainian refugees. Does anyone disagree there?

He doesn't answer regarding other safe routes being opened up as he appears focused on small boats rather than the overall immigration picture. I'm not sure why you think that represents dishonesty or a change of policy. It's either he got side tracked by the dangerous channel crossings, or he was dodging it as the full policy hasn't been fully written yet.

I didn't compare small boat crossings to freedom of movement! What the strawberry float is going on here?! EDIT - I mean, will it help if I point out that Labour also now do not support freedom of movement?

Starmer had an original policy to "Defend migrants rights" with "Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend freedom of movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl's Wood". Labour now has an immigration policy based around stopping small boat crossings with a new counter-terrorism taskforce to "smash criminal gangs". When the question of safe and legal routes is put to him he instead goes off on small boat crossings being morally wrong.

How is that conducive with "an immigration system based on compassion and dignity"?

[Moggy]

I didn't compare small boat crossings to freedom of movement! What the strawberry float is going on here?!

Your original post:

What circumstances have changed where "Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity" has to become "Smash the gangs! Smash them!" along with conflating the concept of safe routes with small boat crossings?

No circumstances have changed where "free movement as we leave the EU" has to become "smash the gangs". The two have never been the same thing.

We have no idea what the Labour policy on immigration is as they've yet to release a manifesto. They have spoken about criminal gangs in relation to small boats and have dodged the question on safe routes. We have no idea yet if they have a plan for that.

[Vermilion]

Speaking of the EU, the new EES (entry/exit system) comes into force from October 6th which will likely mean even more bloody queuing at the borders.

I guess at least the French have spent some money getting Calais port up to scratch, Dover on the other hand is a shitshow.

[Garth]

twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1793980716080038335

[Curls]

Not sure if I should just vote Labour in North wales - Vale of Clwyd (where Im registered). Or move my vote to Eastleigh(where I now am) and Vote Lib Dem where it may have more of an affect on the Tory hold.

Tactically, the latter.

But also, unless you're only there temporarily, you should register where you're living. It has an effect on things like credit records.

I move around too much and my mortgage is in North Wales, keeps things simpler! Actually maybe it's safer not to move my vote and just vote labour in Wales.